The Thinking Practitioner Podcast:

Episode 158: Is Your Work Valuable? (with Til Luchau & Whitney Lowe)

Whitney Lowe  

Welcome to the Thinking Practitioner podcast, 

 

Til Luchau  

a podcast where we dig into the fascinating issues, conditions and quandaries in the massage and manual therapy world today. 

 

Whitney Lowe  

I’m Whitney Lowe

 

Til Luchau  

 and I’m Til Luchau. 

 

Whitney Lowe  

Welcome to the Thinking Practitioner. Welcome and thank you for joining us, where Books of Discovery has been a part of the massage therapy and bodywork world for over 25 years. Nearly 3000 schools around the globe teach with their textbooks, e textbooks and digital resources. Books of Discovery likes to say that “Learning Adventures start here”, and they find that same spirit here on the Thinking Practitioner podcast, and they are proud to support our work, knowing that we share the mission to bring the massage and bodywork community thought provoking and enlivening content that advances our profession.

 

Til Luchau  

Instructors of manual therapy education programs can request complimentary copies of Books of Discovery’s, textbooks for reviewing in your programs. And listeners can explore Books of Discovery’s collection of learning resources for anatomy, pathology, kinesiology, physiology, ethics and business mastery at booksofdiscovery.com where you as a Thinking Practitioner listener, can save 15% by entering “thinking” at checkout. Hello Whitney,

 

Benny Vaughn  

Good day, sir. Those of you who are watching us on video today, you’ll notice that we did wear the uniform today. We’re both dressed similar today, with black turtlenecks. 

 

Til Luchau  

I didn’t even get that memo, but, oh yeah, that happens. That’s good.

Whitney Lowe  

It’s the Steve Jobs day. So you remember, right? He always used to wear the blue jeans and the black turtlenecks everywhere. So

 

Til Luchau  

maybe we need, like, a Thinking Practitioner, merch site or something, oh, yeah, black turtlenecks and what else 

 

Whitney Lowe  

I got it branded headphones go for everybody to listen to us. Perfect. Yeah. Well, other than our attire today, let’s see. We’re going to dive into some things. We want to talk about an article that you wrote a little while back here for Massage and Bodywork Magazine called “Is your work valuable?” I liked the concept here, and I’m looking forward to diving into this a little bit. Tell me. Tell us a little bit more about the article. 

 

Til Luchau  

It was a fun project. It came a few years after the magazine commissioned me to conduct a large scale survey, and we got some corporate sponsors, and ABMP published it to their huge list of practitioners. We got over 2000 massage and bodywork practitioners to participate in this survey, and we were trying to measure what we were calling the psychology of a full practice, what attitudes or behaviors correlated with having this practice size that people wanted. And so then I extracted out some of the key points and wrote a few articles about it. And this one weaves together some of the findings from that large survey, but also with some other research into how the value; the perceived value works as a feedback loop between the practitioner and client. Turns out, the value isn’t just about the results clients get or just about the price you charge. It’s a lot more interesting that.

 

Whitney Lowe  

Yeah, I think, you know, there’s so often very strong correlation. We think value equals price, and I think that’s one of the great things that you really broke apart here. And I look forward to diving into a little bit so in the article, you describe value as having a sort of a complex, two way interrelationship. I thought this was really interesting with results, kind of like almost a chicken and egg situation. So unpack that a little bit about the client’s initial perception of value and how that shapes the results that they get during their treatments.

 

Til Luchau  

If someone comes in expecting or suspecting or thinking what they’re going to get from you is good, it’s more likely to be good. It’s not foolproof. Expectations don’t determine everything, and sometimes clients get surprised that something’s even better or worse than they expected. But if they come in expecting not much, chances are better. that they’re going to get not much out of working with you. So some of this is about the value question. How much do clients value what we do is partly what they come in with as well.

 

Whitney Lowe  

I was thinking about this a little bit like, how do we create that in advance? Is that in our marketing materials or reputation? What is it that we do to create that perception from the clients in advance?

 

Til Luchau  

It’s everything we do. You can say, everything the client has come in contact with. Yeah, sure. Our marketing materials, the reputation we have out in the community, the ways we respond to them as we’re setting them up for their appointment, and then their first impressions, all those things are building expectancy, building the expectations that clients have. This is going to be valuable. It’s going to give me what I’m looking for, or I’m not sure, yeah. Yeah, we go into some of the details, you know, further on, but that’s it’s it comes down to basically every contact the clients have with us, that’s the measurement that’s being taken. And they all weave in together to create that sense of, this is going to be good.

 

Whitney Lowe  

So on that theme sort of of expectations. You saw a fascinating placebo study in the article where people were given a fake pain pill and then shocked on the wrist and the I can guess, several different types of pain pills. On the expensive one, they were told one was more expensive than the others. The expensive one seemed to work better than the discounted one, the same, although they were the same pill.

 

Til Luchau  

Well, yeah,  so that’s right, it is a fascinating one. The subjects were told they were getting different types of painkillers. They were getting the same sugar pill in both groups. So about 80 people. Studies are about 80 people. The authors known here, Rebecca Weber, put a reference in the show notes here. But they were told they divided in two groups. One group was told, you’re getting a regularly priced pain pill value about 250 we’re testing its effectiveness. The other group was told, you’re getting a discounted pain pills worth about he’s paid about 10 cents for these pills. They were told, yeah, remember the same sugar pill. But it turns out, the people that were told they were getting the regular price had a much better pain relief from shocks at all different voltages than the people that totally got the discounted pain pill. 

 

Whitney Lowe  

That was reminding me of another study I had read many years ago, and I’d have to look at that. Maybe we can try to look it up and find it put in the show notes that was related to a foot pain issue where they were measuring the relationship between this is about the time that the real fancy, super expensive Nike Air Jordan tennis shoes were coming out, and they were finding a lot of people getting, you know, some differing levels of injuries associated with these really fancy shoes. And they did an experiment where they had people step down on a piece of rubber off of a platform, and then they have force plate measuring the impact of how they were stepping down on that because they were having a very higher incidence of injuries in these really expensive shoes, which seemed like the flip side of the way it should be. And so they hadn’t stepped down on this different coloring pieces of rubber, telling them like this, one piece of rubber is like a, you know, Kmart tennis shoe. It’s really cheap tennis shoe. The second piece of rubber that’s colored differently was a medium grade shoe, and the fancy, you know, Nike Air Jordan shoe was a different color. And just measured how strongly they stepped down on these different pieces of rubber. And they actually were stepping down on the rubber a lot harder in what they thought was the much more cushy tennis shoe rubber, of course, not being told that all three of those pieces of rubber were exactly the same. They were just colored differently.

 

Til Luchau  

And then the presumption being that, because they were stomping into the expensive shoe, they were injuring themselves more?

 

Whitney Lowe  

They thought they had better cushion, so they were just doing a little bit more vigorous type of thing, stomping into it a bit more. So that was sort of the, the takeaway from that.

Til Luchau  

Okay, that’s fascinating, because that has implications what we’re talking about too. Do people lean into us when they perceive us as having value or having more potential to help? 

 

Whitney Lowe  

And I would, I would think so. 

 

Til Luchau  

I would think so too. I want my clients leaning in. Oh, I’m stepping in. Yeah. I do for sure, right? Okay, one good example, but yeah, the takeaway from that could be that the more people pay, the more likely they are to get something out of it. I don’t know if I would go there honestly and this, this study has been cited in the therapy world, psychotherapy world, as well as a couple of studies from the 70s to for evidence that, “you need to pay for your therapy for it to be valuable to you”. And it turns out, the studies from the 70s weren’t that well done, and this study here isn’t definitive about that either. What does seem to matter in the research that’s done since is it’s more about the value that the client or patient puts on the therapy or massage or body work. Value they put on it and price, the amount they pay, is just one factor, just one factor. And because money is so different for different people, it’s really hard to put it down to even expensive or not expensive. 

 

Whitney Lowe  

Yes, I do think price really gets a lot of excess focus from us when we’re trying to compare, like, you know, just in the massage and manual therapy community, you know, my cost of doing massage versus somebody going to a franchise, for example, and like, getting a much less expensive treatment, and then that gets perceived as being lesser quality or whatever. But yes, may or may not be, because the value there may be a whole different value proposition going on there.

 

Til Luchau  

Well, price is one, and for some people, price is a big factor. For others, it’s not. I’m thinking of a early in my bodywork career I remember being approached by a 14 year old kid who really wanted to get the work I was doing, but was going to. pay for it himself and couldn’t afford my rates. Then I says, okay, so what would you think you could pay? He said, How about $14 I’m 14 years old, and that’s great. And we had the best series of sessions working together, and he was so into it. He valued so much. On the other hand, working in, not to make too big a generalizations about money, but working in Aspen, which is a very well-heeled resort town here in Colorado, and people where money was not an object, treated the sessions like that too, like they wouldn’t show up, or they would, you know, get annoyed if I’d ask them to move their foot up and down a little bit, or they were basically dropping their bodies off, to me, like their other service providers that’s already taken care of, yeah? And they hadn’t really put any skin in the game, so to speak. 

 

Whitney Lowe  

Interesting. Well, talking about that thing in sort of like the price thing, a little bit you mentioned that sort of discount motivated customers are much less likely to become regular customers or to refer clients like if they’re really just looking for that deal, you know, that special deal. So what’s happening in that situation? 

 

Til Luchau  

There’s recent data on that around the discount. Do people that come to you because of the discount stay with you? And there’s exceptions, but by and large, not as much as people that start at your regular price, and it’s pretty cheaper the discount, the more the drop off. And that’s been, not only, you know, seen in studies in other business fields, but the the hubbub of the talk that people do in our field validates that as well. They talk about how I think Groupon is pretty old school, and old news now, but when this article is written, it was, there was a lot of people doing Groupon experiments, and you could basically, I think Groupon was this flat half off. Give it for half off, and we’ll give you all the people you can take, or something like that. And it was like that people’s practices were filling up with these half off people, but they were one and done. They’d come and get their half price session and never show up again. Yeah, it was exciting for a while that all this business could come in, if that’s what people were looking for. But the takeaway for most people was that a lot of work and it didn’t really translate into people making the connection to the work that we need to have, the ongoing, ongoing relationships and the fulfilling interactions and results that people want out of what we’re doing?

 

Whitney Lowe  

Yeah, so in there too, you mentioned some signs of poor client perceived value and frequent cancelations, no referrals and all that kind of stuff. I think coming from I’ve heard a fair amount of buzz on social media of that kind of thing as well. That that’s probably following up with with those same ideas. 

 

Til Luchau  

Yeah, there’s a list there. Let me say one more thing about discounts. It’s like, if we just think about it for a second, do we want to be working with someone who think sees us as a deal, as a cheap thing, or do you want to work with somebody who’s really is valuing doing with you and willing to do what it takes to be a part of that? Yeah. I mean, it’s just that’s the point of the article, right there. Now, it’s not to say never discount, because there’s times to do that, and times now too, for sure, like my 14 year old story, or times, the thing is, too, if I value something, if I value my own work, I can be generous with it. Yeah, if I’m given it away to try to get people to come, that doesn’t really communicate value. That gives it, I don’t value it either. I’m just trying to get it happening.

 

Whitney Lowe  

What do you think about the whole idea of, I mean, kind of going back to price for a second of putting a higher price on something. If you feel like your your own practice, or your own you know, skill sets, or you’ve been doing this for x number of years, really warrant a higher price in the community than what is the sort of general going thing. Do you think that that translates into person, into do you have to educate people about that perceived value, that why your price is higher?

 

Til Luchau  

Yeah, that’s, I’m not the right person to ask. I mean, I really want to acknowledge my privilege there of having done this work for 40 years in this community, more largely, and then in the visibility I have, doing the teaching I do, I’ve it’s been many, many years since I’ve been the position of needing to generate clients, and if I was, and I coach a lot of people that do that, so I’m familiar with those quandaries and situations and difficulties sometimes for the challenges.  But do I think I need to explain why my rates are more No, I don’t. I don’t. Now, if I wasn’t getting the work that I wanted, if I didn’t have as many clients as I wanted, I might think about it different, but even then, I wouldn’t be trying to accept. Explain it, because as soon as I start to explain them, I’m defending something. If someone directly asked me, why are your rates more than others, then I might say, well, it’s, it’s actually, in my case, reflecting the rates that other people have been practicing, the amount of time I have charge. Yeah, I charge a lot, but I don’t charge. Honestly, there’s so much a bigger range. I’m not comfortable with that some of the prices that people at the upper end of the spectrum, even here in my town, are charging, I want to find a price that feels right to me, and it’s that is in comparison to what other people with my experience charge. But maybe I’m in the middle, lower part of that. Yeah, that’s where I’m comfortable, personally,

Whitney Lowe  

and on the flip side of that. And then let me just kind of go on the flip side for just a second, because on the lower, if you talk about setting prices lower so that more people are accessible to you as potentials, I know a lot of people grapple with this, like, if prices are too high, there’s a lot of people I won’t be able to serve because they just don’t have a lot of money, and they still need what I can offer them. You know, I think that’s something that I know we grapple with that a lot, both in the, you know, a lot in the education realm as well, one where you set the prices for the courses and things that we’re offering. And I always try to acknowledge that this is the profession where people don’t make very large sums of money, so these things are expensive when they have to come to do courses and things like that, and try to make it a good value and perceived value, but also recognize that there’s limited resources.

 

Til Luchau  

Yeah, and that’s I, that’s right, you and I are probably always looking for that sweet spot with our classes we offer. Yeah, it’s important for me to be affordable in that realm too, and I gotta have a viable business, which means charging a reasonable price too. And it’s probably similar as a private practice. And different people feel differently about it. I don’t. I didn’t try to correlate like, Well, did we? I was gonna say we didn’t try to correlate like arrogance with practice success, but we did try to look for attitudes that that correlated more closely with having the practice people wanted. Arrogance wasn’t one of them, but confidence was. Confidence really did correlate with people having the size practice they want. And who’s to say, if it’s chicken and egg? You get confident when you see people responding, you get this feedback loop, and people respond when you’re confident too.

 

Whitney Lowe  

In the article, you had set aside these sort of nine ways of communicating value. A number of them were about logistics, you know, just linens, decor, punctuality, and all that kind of stuff. And I don’t think people think about that a lot. I really like that you highlighted some of those things as this is all part of the value of what you’re producing with the big picture of what you’re you’re offering is the service,

 

Til Luchau  

Things like linens, the ways that we respond to them, how quickly we respond to them. Looking over the list myself here, quality and condition of your workspace, what you wear, your website or social media presence, etc. That’s details. But those are giving people value clues right off the bat, yeah, and whether they’re thinking about or looking at it or not, they are forming of … people rank things. Yeah, rank our social interactions, they’re ranking you based on those little clues that they’re picking up unconsciously or not. 

 

Whitney Lowe  

In the last episode, we just had the 50-year retrospective that I did with Benny Vaughn, he spoke about, early on in his practice, spending a lot more money to get a professional level hydrocolator system in his office, instead of just using a crock pot, which is what a lot of people were doing for heating up hot packs and things like that, that’s not really what a crock pot is designed for. It’s designed for cooking, but, yeah, you could use it for that, but the perception of the quality of the service was reflected, he thought, in in having professional grade equipment in there, and I think that’s exactly kind of what you’re hitting on here. 

 

Til Luchau  

Both perhaps for the clients we don’t know, sometimes people are more comfortable in a homey environment, yeah, but for sure, for us, what helps us feel confident in the way we’re receiving people? And I can imagine something like a high grade hydroculator being supportive to the practitioner. You should I go through those nine ways? Yeah, let’s move because there was some good stuff in there.

Yeah. The first one was communication.  That’s treating each communication is important, every text, every reach out and the other one was logistics and details, the things we mentioned already, attire, office, decor, paperwork, professionalism, practice, attentiveness, presence, boundaries, etc, keeping time agreements again you you keeping your time agreements communicates that my time is valuable.  And going over is interesting, going over time. So going it says you’re going over to either appointed time. Can communicate that your time isn’t valuable.

 

Whitney Lowe  

Yeah, when you said your time, when we talking about the practitioner’s or the client,

 

Til Luchau  

Practitioners, and certainly the other way around too. But yeah, I’m talking about the practitioner’s time. If I can consistently go a lot more than I advertise or say or announce. Not only I’m not really keeping an overview of what’s happening, what needs to be done, but it’s saying my time isn’t worth much. 

 

Whitney Lowe  

We may not think about this much because we there may be this idea of like. And again, I want to maybe get into this a little bit more about the whole idea of how we charge for what we do, because we do often charge on a time based model, in terms of, instead of a results based model, like you just, you know, a session costs x amount. But what we tend to do is say your cost is X amount per hour. That’s, you know, we’re getting charged per hour. But I have gone into sessions before, where I booked a session with somebody, and it was, you know, so and so. This was the cost of so and so per hour, and I made arrangements to be somewhere after the session was over, because I thought that’s how long the massage was going to last. And the massage therapist thought it would be great to give me a whole bunch of extra time, and they made me late to something. 

 

Til Luchau  

So that’s, that’s good practice to check in. Says, Hey, I’m, yeah, we got the possibility to go over, it’s gonna be the same rate you where you need to be. That’s just a great check in. And I mean, I drew this hard line, like you’re not valuing your time. If you go over, let me say I go over a bunch. It’s hopefully not a whole lot. And if it is a lot of time, it’s a few minutes here and there, if it’s a whole lot of time, I’m having a discussion, a value discussion, with my client about it was like, I’d really like to spend some more time. I’m not gonna charge anymore, but I’d like to do that because I’m feel like we’re getting somewhere, or whatever the table would be, and we get agreement about that, and that’s me that feels like me being generous thing. I really want to do this. I’m conscious of not wanting to create that expectation every time with everybody. And I’m conscious about, like you said, getting in, by getting buy in, and doing it for a reason, not just because of habit.  Do we get through right? We leave out no halfway through somewhere there, Next one. Prepare for each session like really look in if you know someone’s coming in with a condition you never heard about. Take some time and go to the Thinking Practitioner podcast and listen to the episode that talks about that, or one of the other many resources you can find about that, but yourself coming, rested, ready, quieted, in yourself, all those kind of things, really communicates the value of what you do to people. This one’s interesting. Ask your client to invest some effort in their work with you, and that’s the skin in the game question. For example, you might have them articulate their desires and goals, just asking someone to take some time to describe those is asking them to put some time into the interaction, rather than just coming in and lying down your table and expecting you to take it from there. 

 

Whitney Lowe  

I think a lot of these things have a lot of power in creating a greater sense of value around those sessions, because other people in the clients experience of their health, of the healthcare system or the care system, or whatever it is, don’t get that kind of personalized attention of really wanting to know, what do you really want to have happen here? What’s going to be a successful outcome for you? That’s really true. Very helpful for them. I think they people really see a lot of value in that.

 

Til Luchau  

There is, and there’s an art to it, because a lot of people don’t know how to describe it, but asking the questions and guiding people into identifying for themselves what’s important that they really communicates respect for their time is saying that we’re going to focus on this, and it gives you a framework to say, was this valuable at the end of the day too? But other things that we ask clients to invest in, like working within our scheduling parameters, and not to say that you need to be rigid about it, but it communicates something different. If someone calls me and says, Okay, so when do you want to meet? As opposed to say, Yeah, I have openings at 130, 3, and 430, yeah. Answer might be that’s a different value answer. Number seven, charge a price that implies worth, and then if you want to flex on that, that’s your parameter, your prerogative, but that helps avoid the discount addiction, too. Show that others value your work. And this is edgy for a lot of practitioners, because most of us didn’t, you know, we were not into money. We’re not into being that commercial. We’re not into like, being really salesy or something like that. And to actually show that other people value of our work. Can feel boastful or feel arrogant or something like that, and this is saying there’s still valuable I could be a little bit like that, or find a way to like like testimonials on your website, framed thank you notes on your wall from clients, whatever you know. Find some way to show that others value work too, because that’s that is another big the social piece is a big part of that contextual effect. You see other people valuing something, you’re a lot more likely to value yourself too. Yeah. The whole group think, yeah, the last one, again, not unbiased on my site, but I say, show evidence of ongoing learning and professional development. Let clients know about your continuing education studies and share with share them on your site or your social media. Let people know that you’re continuing to train and or that you’ve learned some new things. Not only is that a way to make contact with people, so you stay present in their life, and they think about you when you need something, but it does increase or increment your their sense of your value or what you might be able to offer.

 

Whitney Lowe  

I want to take off on that just a little bit here, too, when you’re talking about the the education thing and doing some other training things, you had noted that the survey data that you all did showed a strong correlation between practitioner-thinking clients value their work, and being satisfied with their practice size. You know how big your practice was, but it also mentioned there saying that the more in person CE hours correlated with personal practice satisfaction, I’m guessing this is the practitioners themselves.

 

Til Luchau  

Practitioners themselves. Yeah, how satisfied are you with your practice as a practitioner? Yes, really strongly correlated with how many in person, ce hours you did, the more CE that you did in that realm, the more likely you were to be satisfied with your practice size. Yeah, I don’t know. Again, chicken and egg. Who knows? We didn’t try to tease out causation, yeah, but it, it goes to show that there’s, there’s a if we’re willing to invest in what we do, that’s gets reflected in the way we feel about it, and it gets perceived by other people too.

 

Whitney Lowe  

 I think you also mentioned there that may have been in the study too, that more online CE hours correlated with less satisfaction from practitioners. Is that right? 

 

Til Luchau  

That it did. I should the couple caveats there. This was pre-covid, and so the data is probably might be different. Now the online education has taken so much more of a foreground and is better than it used to be, and the correlation was not nearly as strong as it was for in person, but it did show that if the people that were least satisfied with their practice did more online. You could imagine that you know, at least in this pre-covid era, that trying to do the easy CE might correlate with valuing your own practice less and being valued less?

 

Whitney Lowe  

I would, I would be quite tempted to to lean in that direction, that that needs a lot of teasing apart, because I think there’s a lot of variables in there that might determine, you know, how those things are being looked at and perceived. Because, you know, again, there’s some other inherent bias, things that are in that, for example, you know, the person who lives in Casper Wyoming doesn’t get a lot of chance for a lot of hands on CE courses, maybe because it’s a bit more of a remote location. I’m picking on Casper Wyoming. I don’t know if we have any listeners there in Casper, 

 

Whitney Lowe  

but we have some students there. I think they have pretty full practices. I don’t know how that works, right? 

 

Whitney Lowe  

Love to hear it. But again, the point being in more remote or geographical locations that aren’t the big metropolitan city center areas, there’s not as many opportunities for in person CE courses, and some of those people might have to depend a lot more on online continuing education.

 

Til Luchau  

I wouldn’t expect that to correlate with practice satisfaction, really. Yap, in that sense, yeah, really does need some teasing part. And speaking of implicit bias, again, I should just once again name. I teach a lot of online education, and I think it’s pretty good.

 

Til Luchau  

You think you’re getting some right now. In fact, listeners, you’re listening to a podcast that is online education. 

 

Whitney Lowe  

So then the article you also mentioned that practitioners who receive the work that they do more often tend to be more satisfied with their practice. So you know that whole. Well, getting some work done makes you feel better about the things that you’re doing as well here.

 

Til Luchau  

A lot of us have that belief that if, if, if our students, or ourselves invest in receiving the work that we give, we’re more likely to value it. That’s kind of an assumption that I have as a teacher, and it was nice to see it in the data, to actually see the people that says, Yeah, I regularly get the kind of work I do. We’re the ones that had the most satisfaction to practice size too, And the opposite was true, too. I never get that stuff. Didn’t have the practices they wanted either.

 

Whitney Lowe  

The section on professional development suggests that visible signs, you know, like you mentioned this earlier, ce certificates on the wall, mentioning your studies to clients and all that kind of stuff, has a significant indicator about, you know, I have a funny story about this, I wondered, like, how this really tweaked or changed this processions outcomes, but I had a friend of mine who I went to high school with many years ago, said she went to get a massage from a person in her hometown, and went into the treatment room, and he looked on the wall and there was a nice certificate on the wall, and she’s looking at that certificate like it had my name on it, signed, oh, my God, I know him from high school. It was a friend of mine from high school, and this student had taken one of my courses, or I had taken our whole certificate program, and got me wondering, like, how did that tweak the perceived value of of that session? Of knowing, yeah, knowing. I mean, Whitney in high school, the training is right, yeah, the I knew him when, sort of thing you know. 

 

Til Luchau  

That’s cute story. Yeah, it’s it. That’s what, that’s what we give certificates for, not only to document your CE hours, but so that you can display them if you’d like to, or put them on your website whatever you want. And again, that’s some of that personal taste and style. But the question to ask yourself, listeners, how do I communicate to my clients that I value my own knowledge base?

 

Whitney Lowe  

I would say that there is a an indication that a lot of people do at least perceive that there is some value in showing those things. I had another situation in which a person went to see a practitioner and saw a certificate on the wall from our company, and it looked a little funny, and they took a picture of it and sent it to me, and I said, you know, I looked that person up in their database. No, they did not take our courses, and basically, they had taken a picture off of social media of somebody else’s certificate and put their name on it and put it on the wall. 

 

Til Luchau  

What a compliment to you, that you’re the one they wanted to counterfeit and forge. That brings a lot of cache to your name does? That’s interesting, too. What a trip.

 

Whitney Lowe  

I was told this years ago by somebody at a massage school. This is back when I was my book was being used in a lot of massage schoolsback in the early 2000, mid 2000s or something like that. Somebody told me that that my book was the most stolen book from the library. That’s interesting. That’s an interesting little stab.

 

Til Luchau  

Put that little seal on the cover.

 

Whitney Lowe  

One of the most stolen books. So there’s value maybe in there. So that’s all right, yeah. So getting back here for a second when you recommend things like testimonials, reviews and you know, to frame the notes that you mentioned that earlier, that also, you know, certainly extends into having others value work. It’s a visible thing that people can see. And I think putting that kind of stuff on your website, putting that session to your promotional materials.

 

Til Luchau  

We should mention, like online reviews too, exactly.

 

Whitney Lowe  

Because we all there is that thing we can say everything til the cows come home, about how wonderful we think our practices or our offerings are to people, but when somebody else says that, it holds significantly more weight, because you’re thinking like, Okay, I’m I can identify with that person in terms of, you know, not the person just sort of trying to blow their own horn etc.

Til Luchau  

It’s okay to ask for a review. It’s okay to ask for a recommendation, yeah, especially with the clients that are really grateful to you, the many of them will feel like this is a way that I can actually show that and express that to you.  You’ll find, I mean, if you don’t do that already, then you’ll find a way that feels right to you to do, but it’s usually the practitioner is much more comfortable than they need to be. It is important to find the right tone and style, because not everybody has the same level of commercial orientation. Some of us don’t want. Want to be off on the deep end of that continuum. Maybe, maybe the thing to do is ask ourselves, who do, who does hit this just right in our mind? Who out there that we know in the world, anywhere in the world of entertainment or selling or body work or whatever, that hits this promotional note at the right level for us. That doesn’t just make us want to go the opposite direction. And then look at that a little bit. What do they do that makes it feel okay? How can you bring some of those qualities of skills into how, how I talk about what I do as well? 

 

Whitney Lowe  

You hit on an interesting thing there too, and you mentioned this in the article when you the article even opened with saying something beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and talking about the subjective, very subjective nature of this, because not everything is going to be something that each person is going to resonate with. So given that subjectivity, like how much, how much agency do we actually have in influencing the client’s perceptions? Why can we atmosphere?

 

Til Luchau  

Can we actually help someone value us if they don’t? Probably not, in an absolute sense at all. But the more of these points we hit, the more likely it is that they are going to value us. We can’t decide how someone feels and make them feel that, yeah, but it’s pretty clear that if we don’t value ourselves, they’re not very likely to be there.

 

Whitney Lowe  

So if we look at look at some of these things, like your own the research data and your own practice, what do you notice about practitioners who are successfully communicating value, versus some of those that maybe aren’t doing it so well. Do you see any good examples that really highlight that.

 

Til Luchau  

A lot of it is confidence. A lot of it is communicating, yeah, not not over explaining, not having to justify, but just stating the offer, just stating what I do, and it’s there’s a lot of attention put on the elevator speech or explaining or defending or honestly, those occasions come up very seldom where that’s even necessary. Most people are coming to because of a recommendation through someone else, or because of what you’ve already put up, perhaps on your outgoing publicity or because they come through an employer. I mean, a lot of this is assuming that you’re on private practice. But some of these, many of these apply to if you’re working for another employer and the practitioners who successfully communicate that they’re valuable basically do it inside out. Basically, have found ways to nurture and believe in and trust their own value. And at the times we don’t, I should say, not about say, if you don’t, but that’s all of us. We all have moments that we don’t, or ways that we don’t, yeah, but the times that we don’t, that’s a place for a little session you can say and so in quotes or metaphorically, a little time to attend to our needs, around how we could value what we do more what’s needed. There some reassurance, some skill building, some reality check, some rest who knows what it is, and that’s it’s sounding kind of like taking care of ourselves, tending ourselves, a thing that we tend to be not so great about in this profession, but that’s probably what it comes down to. It probably comes down to tending to ourselves in the ways that help us value not only what we do, but our time and this gift of a work that we get to give.

Whitney Lowe  

I was having a conversation with somebody recently about promotional practices with things that they were doing on their site. And said, I think one of the most undervalued promotional methods for our field that people just don’t tend to utilize is personalized video on their websites. For example, of you know, massage and body work is a very intimate experience between two individuals. And you want to have some kind of, I mean, there’s probably a lot of, well, I don’t know about a lot, but, you know, a fair degree of just apprehension and uncertainty when you go see somebody you don’t know for this kind of experience. And there’s a lot of, like, maybe not quite feeling so confident yourself as the client coming in there, but if you had a chance to see this person you know, speak directly to the camera and talk to you about who they are, what they do and why they’re going to have a great experience with you, I think that can be a hugely powerful thing, introducing The sense of value for this session by that person really getting to connect with you beforehand.

 

Til Luchau  

I can see that, I can see the video could provide that. Of course, it’s terrifying for most people to actually that talk the problem, talk to your camera about what they do in their practice. What do I say? Oh, my God, and I know. For myself having, I don’t know how many 1000s of hours have been making videos now, but I would say, if I was just starting out, get someone you like and you know that likes you to hold the camera, or just tell it to, because don’t do what I do, which is, like, get my 14 year old son to hold the camera because he was, like, rolling his eyes over the top, he would “pop, oh, my god, I can’t believe you said that”. And you can see it in my face, if you see the impact of me, like, you know, putting on a bright face, but you’re in video. But no, get someone who loves you to hold the camera or imagine talking or put their picture up there, went next to your phone. I like that. Or whatever. Talk to them about it. Don’t be afraid to do it a few times and get advice, get feedback, and find someone who cares about you and you’re comfortable with to actually look at what you do in terms of not just that video, but in your practice, and and point out the places where you could be valuing yourself even more, or could come across even more value.

 

Whitney Lowe  

I like that. I like that. So if, if a practitioner like and I would encourage you, go back and read this article, it’s a really good article. If a person read this and wanted to start somewhere practical tomorrow, like do something to really help, working on enhancing their own sense of value in their practice, or their practice or their clients, sense of value about what they’re doing. Do you have, like, a one thing, kind of thing, or a place that they would start? What’s maybe one of the best places to get going with that? How do they get going?

 

Til Luchau  

It might be as simple as there’s some practical suggestions in the article, finding the one you think you could do, because the like, the exercise thing, the exercise you do is going to be the most valuable to you. The change you make is going to be the most valuable one to you. Some of these might be a big stretch. It might terrify you to think about making a video and putting it out there. So don’t start with that one. Start with something you can do. So there’s so many ways that we can tend to ourselves. I think it might start there. Yeah, in terms of both our bodies, our energy levels, our relationships, our education, our knowledge, all those kinds of things. Tending to our practice. Because that that nurturing or care we put into our practice really does reflect, get reflected and seen and noticed and felt by the clients, whether they’re aware of it or not. Tend to our skills.

 

Whitney Lowe  

I think that’s good, which is a great thing that people are doing listening to the podcast if they’re still with us after all this period of time here, right? I had a student in one of my classes last week who said he’s listened to every episode that we have produced, and like kudos for hanging in there and listening for that. 

 

Til Luchau  

So we should send him a certificate to keep it on as well.

 

Whitney Lowe  

Indeed. Yeah, we’ll do that. Okay, so if you got a one kind of key takeaway here, of best, most important things to share with everybody, what would that? Would that be?

 

Til Luchau  

It would, I mean, the key is, do it all, or be available. One thing is like, there’s a lot of things. That’s the one thing. But I think, just to summarize the key points we’ve talked about, it’s like, value, the value people have for us, gets created in the relationship. It’s not just based on the results you give. It’s not just based on your ability to answer a text. It’s all that together. It’s a reciprocal feedback loop that generates that perception in your relationship, yeah, and genuinely valuing your own work is going to have the biggest impact on how much other people do too. Shows up in lots of little ways, like how you prepare, how you communicate, how you hold your boundaries, how you keep learning.

 

Whitney Lowe  

I think that that really hits a strong point for me too, is just that that part of having that extend through everything that you do to, you know, there’s, there’s a reason that you, you know, do all these little fun point things, to make every little thing be part of the whole bigger picture. And for me, a lot of what I got out of too, was just the whole, the critical value and importance of the confidence level that people exude from what they’re doing. That says so much about supporting the value that you create, whatever is the you know, the value, the price point, the perception of how you want people to view what you’re doing, your confidence level and being able to accomplish what you say you’re all about that. I think that makes so much of a greater impact there.

 

Til Luchau  

Making me remember my first website, which I made in 1999 and the web designer was working with says, No, you need testimonials. That’s just a part of a website. What I never had testimonials. Says, yeah, go ask people for them. I was really reluctant, but he almost like, put a halt on the project until I had that for him. Oh, interesting. And it was a good exercise for me as a practitioner and teacher at that point. And what I got back was really generous, warm and validating, and. And then I remember writing recommendations or testimonials or things like that for people, and one guy says, I actually loved what you wrote for me so much I printed out and carried in my wallet. And when I was having a bad day, I’d sit down and read it. So there is like this, this way that getting reassured, getting revalidated. Can come through that asking other people for their recommendations and feedback too. 

 

Whitney Lowe  

I love that. I love that I’m going to do that next time I’m having one of those days like, well, what am I doing here? Kind of like, I need to go read some testimonials. Remind myself why I’m doing this sort of things. Yeah, excellent. So for those that didn’t get a chance to read this at the outset. Where can people find the article?

 

Til Luchau  

It’s on Massage and Bodywork digital edition, and we’ll put it in our show notes, but a direct link there. And then our we’ll put our YouTube links and other things like that too. That’ll get you back to the actual article and these resources we’ve been talking about too.

 

Whitney Lowe  

Wonderful time. Good to talk with you. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing the article. And also the ideas around this. There’s some these are some kind of, I think, fascinating, subtle fine points about what makes a practice great for people that don’t get talked about so much, they don’t really kind of get as much buzz. 

 

Til Luchau  

to be able to talk to you about I learned so much on this project, and it’s great to be able to share it, and we should thank ABMP, because they support our podcast. They’re the ones that commissioned that large survey. They’re hosting that article. They are the premier association for dedicated massage and bodywork practitioners like you. When you join ABMP, you’re not just getting industry leading liability insurance, you’re getting practical resources designed to support your career, from free, top-tier continuing education and quick reference apps like Pocket Pathology and Five-Minute Muscles, ABMP equips you with the tools you need to succeed and grow your practice,

 

Whitney Lowe  

and ABMP is committed to elevating the profession with expert voices, fresh perspectives and invaluable insights through their CE courses, the ABMP podcast and Massage and Bodywork Magazine, featuring industry leaders like my co host Til here, and his wonderful articles. Thinking Practitioner, yeah, I do a few things in there too. Right. Thinking Practitioner, listeners like you can get exclusive savings on ABMP membership at abmp.com/thinking. So join the best and expect more from your professional association. So again, thanks to everyone for hanging out with us today. We do. Thank you to all of our listeners and our sponsors. You can stop by our sites for the video, show notes, transcripts and any extras. You can find that over on my site at academyofclinicalmassage.com.  Til where will they find that for you?

 

Til Luchau  

 Those are all on my site at advanced-trainings.com as well. And we want to hear from you. We want to hear your ideas or input or feedback about the show. Just email us at info, at the thinking practitioner.com or look for us on social media and YouTube. I am at my name Til Luchau Whitney, where can people find you?

 

Whitney Lowe  

And people can find me under my name as well. Whitney Lowe on the social channels as well. So we’d really appreciate it if you would rate us also on Spotify or Apple podcast or wherever you happen to listen. It’s one of the main ways that helps other people find the show, so we certainly do appreciate that.

 

Til Luchau  

So here we go. I said before the value. Well, there we go. Value for sure,

 

Whitney Lowe  

then sharing the value. So very good. So thank you again for joining us here. Good to see you, sir again, and we’ll chat soon. And please share the word, tell a friend, and we’ll see you next time. Thanks.

Til Luchau  

Whitney, Okay, everybody, thank you. You.