The Thinking Practitioner Podcast:
Episode 65: Women Leaders in Massage Therapy (with CG Funk, Ruth Werner, and Irene Diamond)

Whitney Lowe:

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Whitney Lowe:

In one of our previous episodes, Til had a conversation with Judith Aston about some of the challenges associated with being a woman educator in our field. The genesis for this conversation came about when Til and I were discussing a common theme that gets brought up, but we think warrants greater attention. That is why the educational landscape in our field, mainly the CE education sector, is so much more dominated by men even though our profession is much more dominated by women. We wanted to have some discussions with women in our field that represented different sectors of the field and hear more about their perceptions on this topic. We do recognize that a full and robust discussion on this topic should have voices that represent the greater diversity in our field, so this is really just a starting point for these discussions.

Whitney Lowe:

Some assumptions for these discussions include an acknowledgement that there are many more women practicing in our field than men. However, there isn't always a corresponding representation of women in conference presentations, CE providers, and other places where many perceive the leaders of our profession to be. We also want to acknowledge some of the phenomenal achievements of women who have clearly made a huge impact on our field and continue to provide outstanding leadership and guidance for the future.

Whitney Lowe:

Today, we're going to extend that theme and hear from some of the other voices from the field with three special guests that Til and I had the pleasure of talking with. In the first part, I have a discussion with CG Funk, Senior Vice-President of Culture and Industry Relations with the Massage Heights franchise. In the second segment, Til talks at length with Ruth Werner, author of A Massage Therapist's Guide to Pathology. The episode then concludes with massage CE educator, author and clinician, Irene Diamond. We wanted to ask all three of them some of the same questions and hear some input from different perspectives from within the field of their experience as women leaders in our field.

Whitney Lowe:

Without further ado, let's get started and jump in with my conversation with CG Funk.

Whitney Lowe:

Tell me, CG, as a teacher and a leader in our field... You've been doing this for a very long time... I'm curious, do you feel that being a woman has held you back in any way or caused challenges for you that maybe men may not have had?

CG Funk:

Yeah. Hey, thanks for having me today, Whitney. As you know, my past includes years of teaching in massage schools. It's really where I started. And I always felt very accepted as a woman in the classroom and even with school leadership and my peers. Teaching always came natural to me. And as you know, I love sharing with all the massage students ways to address and heal the body through therapeutic touch. But in leadership roles, after my many years of teaching, there were challenges. Coming from the massage world and not a business world, I experienced many situations where I didn't feel valued with what I brought to the table. I was surrounded by men and I was ostracized quite a bit in the corporate setting. I mean, really I just had to kept showing up that. Basically I just kept showing up. And it's interesting that the perception was, in their minds, I was a wacky massage therapist, not a business woman. Because in the massage world, we have a different speak.

Whitney Lowe:

Right. Yes.

CG Funk:

We speak a different way, and we look at things a different way, and we interact a different way. But in reality, my personality is, is I can straddle both worlds. So I can straddle this with one foot in the massage world and I can straddle this other foot in the business world. And it took years though to be taken seriously. So, I just wanted to jump in, also say that I do believe that if I had been a male in that position, it would've been a much easier time. And I also want to say that it's different today.

Whitney Lowe:

Yeah, so how did that shift for you? Because obviously, you moved up into very high positions in the companies that you've been with and you've gotten national recognition as a tremendous leader and influencer from so many of the positions that you've held. How did you see that shift over time? Was it just kind of gradually people recognizing the value of your contributions and then changing? Or how did that change for you?

CG Funk:

Yeah. I think, for me, in the leadership role with the corporate entity I was with back then, it was more the recognition for my participation and involvement came from outside in the massage and spa industry, not from inside. And so that recognition grew. Now, if you were working with outside of the executive team... Which I sat on the executive team and I sit on one today... but if you worked with people that weren't in that within the organization, it was kind of a different acceptance. But I can tell you that my reputation grew more and was valued more from the spa and massage industry than it was internally. But that's changed over time. And especially in spa resort, spa franchise world, there are so many more female leaders today than there were back then.

CG Funk:

And where I work today at Massage Heights, I'm surrounded by strong woman. Our CEO is a woman, our CFO, our legal department, our founder. And so I had a front row seat at watching that change. And I see this in other organizations as well, these women in these leadership roles now that you would not have found 15 years ago. You wouldn't have found it.

Whitney Lowe:

Right. I'm trying to look at this and make sure I'm not making inappropriate evaluations of things going on. I was trying to look at several different categories, things like professional associations, organizations that might have legislative input, the CE world. And one of the things that I was kind of seeing, and I don't have really good statistics on this, but it sure appears as if clearly there's a very strong, greater percentage of women in our field as the people who are primarily doing the day-to-day work. There's a greater number of practitioners that are women by a long shot. But that representation doesn't always get reflected in some of the organizations and other things that are out there.

Whitney Lowe:

Now, it seems like there's a pretty good representation of a larger percentage of women in some of the professional associations and the certification boards and the accreditation bodies with COMTA, and things like that. But the one place that I don't see it as much is in the CE world with a lot of the CE classes that are out there and some of the perceptions of the individuals that are leading the CE world.

CG Funk:

It's real interesting that you asked me this question, because I was asking the same question to myself a few months ago. And we know, when we look out there, there are very few nationally and internationally known massage CE educators that are female. And I've been wondering why, and I wonder do current CE male providers, do they only employ other males as their assistants? Because that's definitely a place that, if you want to be a national provider, that you would start as an assistant. Or does our industry, as a whole, have an unrecognized prejudice when selecting a CE class? That's another thing. Or, I mean, when I taught massage school, most of the instructors were female. But outside school, we have so many more men teaching than women. And I did wonder, are women less likely wanting to travel a 100 days on the road from city to city? Or is there confidence challenge with them?

CG Funk:

My other thing when I started going down this little rabbit hole is, I don't see many new younger CE providers in general making it nationally these days. So I kind of wonder, has the profession lost its mentorship approach that was real prevalent in the '80s and '90s. And the other part of that is, is that when you look at our national providers now, like you Whitney, you've created your whole system and structure. Basically, you created your own modality. And so I don't see that happening at all. But it's interesting that many women, there aren't many... I mean, I can think of one, Tina Allen. She has international recognition for her work with children and maternity massage, and all of that good stuff. Honestly, I know a lot of CE provider women, but they're regional. They don't get it to the big times.

Whitney Lowe:

I do think that there's still, as you mentioned, a bias about women being of the same academic sort of proclivity as some of the men might be in those positions. It's just like in academia. I think men will often get advancements before women will, even when they're equally qualified for those different positions.

CG Funk:

Right.

Whitney Lowe:

I think there's just still some instinctive bias in the population that attends these classes.

CG Funk:

Right, right. I mean, it's interesting. But I think it can change and it's more of... I don't know how. I haven't put that much thought into it. But you and I have done a lot of things in our career where we made stuff up and it worked, so...

Whitney Lowe:

Yeah, right.

Whitney Lowe:

And I always thought too it would be an interesting experiment. I don't think I could pull it off now, but at a time when maybe I was not as well known. If I had a CE class that was advertised that didn't have my picture up there, because I have a name which is more commonly associated with women, would I get a different degree of attendance to that class if people thought I was a woman versus a man? I would be curious to know that.

CG Funk:

Yeah, you could do it in a pink color or something, just to make the ad look more feminine.

Whitney Lowe:

Yeah, right. Right, yeah.

CG Funk:

That's really interesting. Super interesting.

Whitney Lowe:

Yeah, it's an interesting question. I don't know how I could set up the research study to figure that out, but some way or another.

Whitney Lowe:

So, I'm always about solutions, trying to find like how do we address this? So do you have any ideas or aspirational thoughts of what's the way to change this? You brought up another interesting point too, and I had wondered if this was just my imagination not seeing things, but I would also agree that I haven't seen as much of a movement of new people coming onto the circuit for teaching CE classes at least, or even volunteering for work in the associations as we used to see a bit ago. So how do we get more, especially more women, but more people in general interested in doing some of these things and really moving our profession forward and being more reflective of who we are?

CG Funk:

Yeah. I went to school in the early '90s. And so back then, it was almost that the massage profession was a connected profession. I mean, we were involved from students on with association work, and local work, and knowing who the visionary instructors were back then. I mean, I can't tell you the amount of folks that I learned from in CEU classes and stuff. And there seems to be in our massage industry, there's a big disconnect now. And when I think about this, I wonder if that disconnect was created through education. And I'm not dissing any schools and I'm not pointing fingers or anything, but if you think about the massage education, what it looked like between the year 2000 and 2012, it was really majorly different than it was in the '90s.

Whitney Lowe:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

CG Funk:

And so, of course, there's many of those schools that don't even exist or those programs don't even exist anymore because it was kind of a vocational school play as opposed to these beautiful founder massage therapists from the '70s and '80s opening their own schools because they loved the work.

Whitney Lowe:

Right, yeah.

CG Funk:

And maybe that's where it starts, maybe it starts through the small business owner looking again at this as a potential business for them. I mean, I've spent the last 15-20 years of my career doing programs and initiatives that outreached to massage therapists across the country, and they're not an easy group to get to. Once they leave school, they scatter and they work behind closed doors all day. And so, I think if I look at the associations are suffering because of that, this idea of connection, I don't think COVID has helped at all with the pandemic and the closing of school. So there's no anchor point for those therapists, those graduates anymore. That's probably all contributed to it. I don't have any answers today, but I'd sure like to sit down with you with a bottle of wine and we can hash through it.

Whitney Lowe:

That's right.

Whitney Lowe:

We'll come up with the grand scheme, the grand solution.

CG Funk:

There you go. There you go.

Whitney Lowe:

Well, I do think it is so important and so valuable for us to call attention to some of the incredible trailblazers of our profession who really have done those things. And you are certainly an icon for, I think, a lot of women in our profession to have achieved some really stupendous things along your career with a wide variety of things that you've done both in teaching and with your work with different organizations in leadership positions in the corporate level and getting a lot of corporate structure to understand the bizarre world of massage therapy aesthetics and those types of things. So I think you've been a wonderful role model for so many people. And I want to encourage you to keep doing that for a while, so we can point people in your direction to see that these kinds of things are certainly possible.

CG Funk:

Well, thank you, Whitney. And I've always had really high regard for you and all the work you've done. And I've enjoyed working with you throughout the years. And I'm glad you're still around because people are leaving.

Whitney Lowe:

A little while longer. Yeah, a little while longer I think at least.

CG Funk:

Good. Good, I'm glad to hear it.

Whitney Lowe:

Yeah, great.

Whitney Lowe:

Well, CG, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate this. And we'll see if we can make some groundbreaking changes in the world of hands-on healing for people in the future as well. So, thank you so much for everything again.

CG Funk:

Well, thank you for having me today. And I love this podcast idea that you have, and I'm going to share it everywhere because what you guys are doing is really opening the conversations and starting people thinking about this. And that's where change starts, that's how it starts. Thanks, Whit.

Whitney Lowe:

Yes. Absolutely.

Whitney Lowe:

All right, take care.

Whitney Lowe:

And now, Til will pick this up with his interview with Ruth Werner.

Til Luchau:

Thanks to my guest today, Ruth Werner. Thanks for being here with me.

Ruth Werner:

Happy to be here as always.

Til Luchau:

What about there being so few women teachers in our field, that's the question we're exploring. And you were on our list of people we wanted to talk to and get your take on that, Ruth. So thanks for that.

Til Luchau:

First-

Ruth Werner:

I have a few opinions.

Til Luchau:

Do you? Good. Good.

Til Luchau:

First question on my side is, how do we know this is even an issue? Because this didn't even occur to me as a question until one of my guests is, "Oh, really? Is that the case that there are fewer women?" So, how do we know that this is an issue and why?

Ruth Werner:

That's an excellent question. I think I would maybe draw a line between women in continuing education providers versus women who are in the core curriculum classrooms. I think probably there's a significant difference there.

Til Luchau:

With presumably more balance between men and women at the school level?

Ruth Werner:

That would be my guess, or even balanced toward women being teachers more as a reflection of the population of our profession as well.

Til Luchau:

Which is mostly in the massage therapy, 80-85% women according to the ABMP's latest demographic survey.

Ruth Werner:

Right. And it's been that way for a really, really long time.

Til Luchau:

Yeah.

Til Luchau:

So, you're saying that probably, and this is what conventional wisdom is saying now that, in the continuing education world, the most visible teachers are men. And you see lots of advertisements with men and lots of panels with men. And the awareness of that is certainly shifting. I mean, that's been brought to my attention. I've been part of things like that, so that's got my interest in exploring this question a little more. But do you agree? And are there downsides, costs, whatever to that situation?

Ruth Werner:

Yeah, I'll agree. And I think an easy way to take a temperature on this would be to look at list of presenters, especially if presenters' about technique who are appearing at the national level kinds of meetings, so AMTA and World Massage Festival, and the larger chapters. I think if you looked at who were the headliners about the sexy new neck technique, or how to fix low backs, or whatever, you're going to find a lot more men in those positions than you will women.

Ruth Werner:

And your second question is, is that a bad thing? Well, it's not a great thing. And I think it is a truth for a whole bunch of reasons. But when we think about this field which struggles to be recognized as a profession... And sometimes I will use the term profession, but it always doesn't feel like the perfect fit... when we think about this field and it's obstacles... Oh, gosh, I'm going down a rabbit hole and I'm not sure how committed I am to this. But I am in this moment, okay?

Til Luchau:

Right.

Ruth Werner:

One of the obstacles I think-

Til Luchau:

Well, just a reminder that editing is always an option.

Ruth Werner:

Oh, good. That's good.

Til Luchau:

Rewind.

Ruth Werner:

Yeah, you're using that.

Ruth Werner:

One of the things I think this field struggles with is in taking itself seriously and stepping up to the responsibilities that we would have as professionals if we saw ourselves and treated ourselves as professionals trying to carve out relationships with our allied colleagues. Right?

Til Luchau:

Okay.

Ruth Werner:

And there is, I can only speak to my own perceptions and experience, but I have a lot of this experience of massage therapists really, really, really wanting someone to tell them what to do, which makes my life as a pathology teacher... It makes part of the job that I do especially important.

Til Luchau:

Important, because you help people know how and whether to work on people with different pathological situations.

Ruth Werner:

I don't tell people how and whether to work.

Til Luchau:

You don't?

Til Luchau:

Tell me.

Ruth Werner:

What I do, do is help people determine what are the variables that need to go into that decision.

Til Luchau:

Okay, nice.

Ruth Werner:

Right?

Til Luchau:

Yeah.

Ruth Werner:

So, there are a few situations where I say, "Yeah. No, that's a really bad idea." But almost always, there's a way to work safely and professionally and lovingly with someone, even who has a complicated condition.

Til Luchau:

I'm with you.

Ruth Werner:

And my job is to help people figure out, how can I maximize benefits and minimize risks? I mean, that's sort of my whole zeitgeist of how I teach.

Til Luchau:

There's a whole conversation there, isn't there? I'm going to try not to step in that rabbit hole because the fact that the third most visited page on our site has the word contraindication to that. That seems to be the search term that catches people. So we want to know, is it okay? But that's a whole other subject.

Ruth Werner:

Right. And I think I would reframe that, we want to know what the risks are, which is a little different from, "Do I have permission?"

Til Luchau:

Yeah, nice. Yeah.

Ruth Werner:

But to get back to my original path-

Til Luchau:

Thank you. Thank you.

Ruth Werner:

My sense is... And maybe it's less now than it was when I was more involved in beginning education. But my sense is, as a profession, massage therapists are in search of someone who will tell them what to do. And as a culture, we like to hear that kind of guidance from men. And I'm not saying that, that's a good thing or a bad thing. It's a thing, right? That two people can say the same thing, but if it comes out in a higher register for whatever reason, you don't take it as seriously as the person who speaks in a base tone. And-

Til Luchau:

Interesting. Thinking of Margaret Thatcher talking about needing to lower her register to speak. Yes.

Ruth Werner:

Right. Yeah.

Ruth Werner:

And I wish that weren't true, but it is. And we have a number of men in our profession who are really, really talented and really skilled, and great communicators and wonderful teachers. And so they are doing what they're good at and they're providing a wonderful service to the world. And at the same time, I just have to wonder how many women are talented, and skilled, and great communicators, but for whatever reason are having a harder time breaking into... And here, I'm talking specifically about teaching continuing education in technique. And an exception to that would be in techniques, hands-on work in the context of medically frail people and in the context of people who have cancer, because really the leading teachers in those fields are mostly not men. But the leading teachers in the field of orthopedic work, injury rehab, structural integration, the things maybe that take more physical power to do are mostly men. And that's not a reflection of our profession. And I have to wonder what we're missing out on by not having those voices.

Til Luchau:

Yeah.

Til Luchau:

And is there a downside to that? Is there a cost we're paying?

Ruth Werner:

Yeah. Well, I have to wonder what we're missing. Because I mean here, among a million other things, Til, your body mechanics and the way you can lean into the work that you do is going to be different from the way a woman does, because we have breasts and we have a different center of gravity. Right?

Til Luchau:

Yeah, I run into that all the time actually in the classes. And it's so important that, on our teaching team, we have women who can adapt what I just get in there and take a hold of and do, and make me realize I'm using the privilege of my size and large hands to do it. So, there's that.

Ruth Werner:

Right. And from the first day of massage school, we are told it doesn't matter if you're small. It doesn't matter if your hands are little. We will teach you how to have the power to do really great work. Except with those high level continuing education technique classes, I'm not at all sure that, that actually happens. That's a place that it can be a problem.

Til Luchau:

I'll invite you to our class sometimes.

Ruth Werner:

Yeah, I would love to.

Til Luchau:

But yeah, I'm with you on the field. But that's something that we're really thinking hard about on our side, for sure.

Til Luchau:

So, personally for you then, as a teacher in this field, you're not in the technique niche per se. But do you feel that being a woman has held you back in any way?

Ruth Werner:

Only in the sense that I have held myself back and that's a whole other sort of cultural thing. So I don't know how much of this is due to being a woman, but I will share with you some history. So I have a long history of appearing at large scale meetings and having my sessions compete with guys who are teaching big classes. And that's fine, I have no problem with that. And a lot of times my classes are populated by people who tried to get into the technique classes and they didn't. There was no room and they had to do something, so they come and see me. And then they become really enthusiastic about learning what I have to offer. And that's great, I have no problem with this.

Ruth Werner:

But when it came time for me to think about trying to do my work on the same scale as the guys, I ran into a lot of problems that may have been self-imposed. And one of them is about risk aversion. And you and I, I think we did a whole episode on risk aversion at some point.

Til Luchau:

That's right, yeah.

Ruth Werner:

But there was one time, for instance... I remember this very clearly because I took a bath on it... where I decided, okay, I'm going to try this. I rented a space and I bought mailing lists, and I sent out...

Til Luchau:

Good for you, yeah.

Ruth Werner:

This was pre-email mostly. And I really, really hammered it and I had enough enrollment to barely cover my costs. And then it was 9/11 and everything got canceled.

Til Luchau:

Oh, yeah. Right.

Ruth Werner:

And I lost a couple of thousand dollars. And I mean, I'm not complaining about that, except that it made it clear to me as a primary breadwinner in a home with a couple of kids that I could not afford to take that kind of risk on a regular basis. And while it might be more lucrative for me to arrange my own stuff, it feels safer and just a better fit. And it is, it's just a better fit for me to work with hosts who pay me a set fee. So, that is an obstacle I have put in my own way. I associate that with being a woman mainly because of risk aversion things and that it may be completely wrong. But it makes me wonder when you or some of our colleagues say, "I'm going to go teach a workshop in Portland", and you make all your upfront investments. I mean, I know a certain number of those just don't go through.

Ruth Werner:

But I don't know... Maybe it's a little bit of imposter syndrome... I don't know that I could fill a class and make it run and make, and make any money off of it. I'd rather have someone else be responsible for all that work.

Til Luchau:

Yeah. No, I think a lot of people can relate to you and what you're saying. I certainly can. And there probably are some ways that, that falls along gender lines. Of course, some of those are universal of course too. It's just some of us would rather go work for someone. Some are more entrepreneurial. But I bet, we could be having the same conversation about entrepreneurs as opposed to hands-on body work therapists or teachers, something like that. And I appreciate the nuance of what you're talking about because there's a difference between the possible causes or factors at work, or personal pieces, or systemic pieces. All those are different levels and they're all stirred up in there together for all of us. But really, I mean, you're helping me kind of unpack this question of what it's like to be a woman teaching in this field and how we might be awake or not to the forces holding us each back.

Ruth Werner:

And when you say teaching in this field, do you mean in massage therapy altogether, or specifically in continuing education?

Til Luchau:

I think my purview is not even massage therapy per se, although the majority of people in the classes are massage therapists, but hands-on manual therapy. At least here in the U.S., most people that come to my class is 70% or so are massage therapists. So that's been my biggest single component, but I lump that in together with other Rolfer structural integrators, people who don't- or movement therapists who use hands-on work as well. So that kind of somatic or manual therapy. Physical therapists, physical therapy assistants in particular. More and more acupuncturists or people in traditional Chinese medicine also are coming to our classes. So, in my little window, it's a mix across professions, but I know that what I get my attention drawn to is in this massage therapy field. And it's-

Ruth Werner:

And you're talking about professional development rather than core curriculum?

Til Luchau:

Yeah, very much so.

Ruth Werner:

Yeah, and there's a pretty bright line there about where people are represented.

Til Luchau:

Okay.

Til Luchau:

Or maybe it's perceived expertise because, again, this has come up on a few panels I've been invited to. It's like, "Wait a minute, we forgot to invite any women. How did that happen?" Or all kinds of places that I get embarrassed to be woken up to this fact that there's not women with me there.

Ruth Werner:

Well, and I've seen and had conversations with people recently about equity and representation. And it becomes a circular problem where some people are not being invited to the table, but where do we find them? And you and I were talking about this the other day, there is a sense about women doing aggressive self-promotion on the same level as a lot of men who are promoting their work in continuing education in massage. But if women do that, there's a weird taste that gets left in one's mouth. And I am as guilty of this as anybody, when I see my women peers behaving in ways that I would consider aggressive self-promotion-

Til Luchau:

Here's a weird taste, yeah.

Ruth Werner:

It is a little-

Til Luchau:

Okay. So you're saying that when a man does it... And we're not going to mention any names, but you know who you are.

Ruth Werner:

Whitney. No, I'm kidding, of course.

Til Luchau:

Right.

Ruth Werner:

The least aggressive self-promoter on the planet.

Til Luchau:

Maybe you cut a little more slack to us guys. I'll put myself in that group who do a fair amount of promotion, and maybe even aggressively.

Ruth Werner:

Yeah, there's a difference between self-promotion that says, "I have a great opportunity, I think you'll really like it and it will enrich your work", as opposed to, "I'm really good at this. Come and see how good I am. You'll be so happy that you spent time with me, because I'm so good." And oh God, I'm not sure I want any of this to go on in the recording at all.

Til Luchau:

Now we're getting there. Good, we're getting to good stuff.

Ruth Werner:

But do you see the difference?

Til Luchau:

Totally.

Ruth Werner:

And so, I could be accused of aggressive self-promotion because I'm just producing an enormous amount of stuff right now with the podcast, and the articles, and CE classes, and all kinds of things. But I work hard at promoting that in a way that says, "Here's something that might be useful for you, you might want to check it out." As opposed to, "Oh look, aren't you lucky you get to work with me today."

Til Luchau:

Yes. Right.

Til Luchau:

I can say that, as a guy, as a man, I also find a lot of that distasteful and I also have my own personal edges to that. And it's been an ongoing question for me about how to find my way into the marketing style or the promotional style that feels right to me. But I completely acknowledge too what you're saying with the women that teach with me, the woman I'm married to, learning from them about those same issues, but perhaps at even a different level of impact or a different societal norm that they're working uphill against, those kinds of things.

Ruth Werner:

Yeah. I keep coming back to the fact that my mother was the first woman in her family ever to finish going to college and to work outside the home. That's really close.

Til Luchau:

Yeah, right.

Ruth Werner:

And she raised four kids as a single parent in the '60s and '70s. And yet, even though she was so nonconformist, we all grew up with very specific ideas about what the girls do and what the boys do. And I am really happy to see in my children, and the way they are creating their families, that those sex-based silos are a lot fuzzier than they used to be. But that sort of evolution that takes some time and this is why I'm really excited to see what happens in coming generations of massage therapists and educators.

Til Luchau:

Me too. And as you're talking, I'm thinking it's mostly us old guys. And if I think about the up and coming next generations, there's a lot fewer guy faces there, could say even 10 years younger than me being in my early 60s.

Ruth Werner:

That's fascinating to look at, say, an AMTA slate of presenters from 10 years ago versus this year.

Til Luchau:

Yeah, interesting.

Ruth Werner:

I had never thought to do that.

Til Luchau:

All right. So given that, do you have advice for women interested in teaching in this realm?

Ruth Werner:

I don't know. I mean, if I knew someone who was a really gifted dynamic, powerful teacher of technique who wanted to follow in footsteps similar to yours or some of the other national and internationally known-

Til Luchau:

Well, wait a minute known. I'm sorry. But what if they wanted to follow in your footsteps? What would you tell them?

Ruth Werner:

Oh, well, then get in touch with me and I will show you the path because I need people who want to do my stuff.

Til Luchau:

Right.

Til Luchau:

No, but what would you say? What's one or two things you would highlight for-

Ruth Werner:

Oh. Well, I mean, my advice was to-

Til Luchau:

Okay. Let's say... Sorry, I'm interrupting you multiple times here. But let's say you have two people writing you after this episode. One's a woman. One's a guy. What would you say to the woman that you might not emphasize quite so much to the guy?

Ruth Werner:

Oh, gosh. I don't know that there would be a difference for me.

Til Luchau:

All right. Okay.

Ruth Werner:

That's an interesting question. I am not seeing anything. I mean, the way that I went about it is a way that I think would still really work, which is to start locally with your chapter or local organizations that produces CEs. Maybe do something for free in local schools just to get your licks in, and then start applying to work with chapters or other relatively small scale meetings.

Til Luchau:

Fantastic.

Ruth Werner:

And then go from there because you have to chop wood, carry water for a little while.

Til Luchau:

You got to cut your teeth somewhere.

Ruth Werner:

Yeah. And if you prove yourself to be really easy to work with, you get your stuff turned in on time. You are not unpleasant about your needs and you are a good teammate. You play well with others-

Til Luchau:

Those are really good pieces of advice that some of us have had to learn the hard way, but go ahead,

Ruth Werner:

Yeah, right. I mean, I figure anytime when someone wants to give me money to do a thing that I want to do, then it is in my best interest to make them really glad that we chose to work together.

Til Luchau:

Nice.

Ruth Werner:

And so I'll go out of my way to figure out what's your system? How does my work fit within your system? How can I make you look great because that's going to make me look great?

Til Luchau:

Dang. That's why we keep inviting you back as a guest.

Ruth Werner:

Yeah, except there's no money changing hands here.

Til Luchau:

Oh, yeah.

Ruth Werner:

But yeah, and I don't know if that's a trait that is more feminine than masculine. It shouldn't be.

Til Luchau:

That's an interesting point. Yeah.

Ruth Werner:

I mean, it's not being deferential.

Til Luchau:

No.

Ruth Werner:

It's just being solution-oriented.

Til Luchau:

And it's somehow being able to put myself in the other party's shoes and consider their interests, experience and the impact of what I'm doing, which having taught preschool, I could say that was the job of most three or four year old boys more than girls, is to understand that what they do has an impact on somebody else. So, I'm right with you.

Ruth Werner:

Right, that can be a really hard thing to learn because you're so locked into yourself.

Til Luchau:

Yeah, right.

Ruth Werner:

And maybe women are, just because of our role in this particular culture, a little more attuned to looking at, "Okay, I just did that thing. How is this going to blow back on me? Is that going to blow back in a good way or in a bad way?" Boy, that's a whole different can of worms, isn't it?

Til Luchau:

Yeah, how so? How are you thinking?

Ruth Werner:

Oh, I'm thinking about safety.

Til Luchau:

Oh, of course.

Ruth Werner:

So I started high school in Southern Colorado. Got a chance to get into a really high level... In Manzanola.

Til Luchau:

Manzanola?

Ruth Werner:

And Fowler. Actually, we lived in Manzanola. I went to high school in Fowler. It's southeastern corner.

Til Luchau:

That's my state, but I don't know the... Southeastern corner, okay. I'm with you.

Ruth Werner:

Yeah.

Til Luchau:

Right.

Til Luchau:

Sorry, go ahead.

Ruth Werner:

And then I got a chance to get into a really high level fancy-schmancy prep school in Boston.

Til Luchau:

Quite a change.

Ruth Werner:

And I went there and lived with my father who hadn't lived with anybody in a long time. And went to this fancy prep school, and from which I took the subway home every day. No one ever told me, ever, don't make eye contact with people on the subway. It took me a while to learn that if you make eye contact with the wrong person, they follow you home. More than once I had to duck into a little grocery store and wait for them to go away.

Til Luchau:

Wow. Wow.

Ruth Werner:

And because of that, maybe that's something. Maybe that's one of those things that taught me, you have to evaluate every pebble that you toss in the pond is going to have ripples. You better be watching for where those ripples are.

Til Luchau:

Yeah, right.

Til Luchau:

Wow.

Ruth Werner:

Yeah?

Til Luchau:

Yeah.

Ruth Werner:

And so when I am working with someone in a money making partnership, I want to make sure to the best of my ability that my participants, the people who attend the class, are getting everything that I promised, plus a little bit more. And that the presenter of the class is really glad that I'm there presenting.

Til Luchau:

Awesome.

Ruth Werner:

Those are my two highest priorities. And I don't know if that's an exclusively feminine approach to thing, but it definitely has worked out well for me.

Til Luchau:

As you're talking, I'm just thinking... And I don't know if this is exclusively masculine, but I'm thinking the third one I add to my list is, do I really enjoy it?

Ruth Werner:

Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. I wouldn't do it if I didn't because... Yeah.

Til Luchau:

Am I having fun? Are my participants getting what they want? Is my organizer getting their value and getting thrilled? And am I enjoying it?

Ruth Werner:

Well, I always feel like... I mean, I have the privilege of being able to only teach things that I'm really into.

Til Luchau:

Yeah, okay. So, that's a given you're saying?

Ruth Werner:

Yeah. I mean, I have been offered, "Will you please come and do a presentation on X, Y, and Z?" And it's like, "No, I am not interested. It does nothing for me." And there's a million people who could do a better job.

Til Luchau:

All right.

Til Luchau:

Well, thank you, Ruth. Is there anything else you want to make sure we underline before we wrap it up?

Ruth Werner:

No, I don't think so. I mean, I hope there's something useful in there that's not incendiary.

Til Luchau:

Oh, I hope there's something incendiary in there, that would be useful.

Ruth Werner:

Send your letters and post cards to Til Luchau.

Til Luchau:

There you go.

Til Luchau:

Well, thanks for taking time from your busy scheduling and to come talk with me and help me explore this issue.

Ruth Werner:

Happy to be here.

Til Luchau:

As always, pleasure.

Ruth Werner:

It was a tough one for sure.

Til Luchau:

It's tricky. It's tricky territory.

Ruth Werner:

And I think it's awesome that two middle-aged white guys are willing to shine a light on this. It takes some guts for those of us who are in privileged positions to say, "Yeah, I'm in a position of privilege. I need to learn more about that."

Til Luchau:

Well, that's my interest, I want to learn more about it. I want to make sure that I'm not contributing to any downsides. And yeah, not to mention all the universalities here, all the things I hear and I go, "Oh yeah, I feel that too. I think about that too."

Til Luchau:

So thank you, Ruth.

Whitney Lowe:

So I've got some other questions here I'm going to address to Irene Diamond here. She's been a massage therapist since 1995 in San Francisco. And so Irene, I want to ask a couple of things about your experience in the field. You've been doing quite a number of different things. You've been a teacher, been a writer, been traveling around a good bit. So, you've had your fingers in lots of different pies here. But curious to know, as a teacher and leader in our field, if you feel that being a woman has held you back in any places? Or what challenges that you feel like you've had that men may not have had?

Irene Diamond:

Personally, I don't think I've had any challenges based on my gender. I'm not one to usually let things get in my way. So when I set my sights on something, I go for it. And I have to say, pretty much make it happen. I do recall when I first started as an educator, I saw there was this company... I won't mention names... a lotion company. And they had an announcement or a flyer that they would use at trade shows, and in their advertisements, in the magazines. And I remember it was always quotes of men, male educators. And I saw them at a trade show and I went to them and I said, "Why don't you have any female educators here?" And it was a woman I was speaking with and she said, "Well, we're working on that." Well, that was years and years ago. And I said, "Okay, well, if you want to work on it, consider highlighting me."

Irene Diamond:

So, my recollection, that's when I really noticed the difference. And my background, my degree is in rehab therapy. And so rehab, it was, at that point, predominantly male. But then my minor was in dance movement, and dance is predominantly female. So I really just never really put two and two together thinking, is it more male dominant? Of course, over the years, people mentioned that. And then I started seeing, yeah, that was happening out there.

Whitney Lowe:

Yeah. One of the things that I have... And this is sort of my perception on it is that there are a lot of women leaders in some of our professional associations and some of the different organizations throughout our profession. But when you talk about a lot of the people who have some of the more prominent visibility as continuing education educators, just like you were talking about with that particular advertising campaign that was engaged, and I think I know the one that you're talking about. I do remember it quite well.

Irene Diamond:

I think you might have been on there.

Whitney Lowe:

Actually, I wasn't on there. But I do recall that. I had some issues, some are very same issues that you did with that. But one of the things that I'm curious about for your take on this is that, in asking this question in some of the social media groups and things like that about why is this perception around there, because there doesn't seem to be as many women that are the prominent, visible educators? Some of the responses have been, "Well, it's more challenging and difficult for women to get out on the road and do this whole kind of thing." And I'm curious to hear your take on that, because you've been doing this a long time and you've been doing those things. And do you think that's a challenge that maybe keeps a greater number of women from being more visible and prominent in doing that kind of thing?

Irene Diamond:

Well, I have been doing it for a number of years, starting before I was married, before I had kids. Obviously, over the years, family comes into play, but I think it's not specific to any industry. It's the women typically are "in charge" of the kids and the family and the home in addition to their career. Well, I was really fortunate. And when I got married, my husband and I chatted about this. And he didn't love his job. I love what I do. I love it and I was not willing to give it up. I was willing to modify it a little bit.

Whitney Lowe:

Right.

Irene Diamond:

But he was like, "You know what? I'm good." And he's better at grocery shopping, and cooking, and all of the typical female stuff than I am anyway. So we co-parented, we co-ran the house. And the fact that I had him as sort of my support team... I call him my pit crew like in car racing... he literally allowed me to have the freedom, the space, the ability to travel. Now, I did curtail it a little bit. And now my kids are pretty much out of the house, so I am ramping up this year to be able to travel more for that very reason. So yeah, family plays into it.

Whitney Lowe:

That support network I think is absolutely crucial. I think that plays into it for so many people. So because those have been traditionally more female roles around managing all those things that you're talking about with the home environment there, it seems like that could potentially play into what makes it more difficult to get out on the road and do all those things being away from home. That wouldn't necessary necessarily stop as many women from being very active, for example, in association work or some of those other positions that might not entail a great deal of travel. So I can see how that might be one of those things that would differ a little bit.

Whitney Lowe:

I'm curious if you have ever felt... Like you've spoken at a number of conferences, conventions and things like that, and probably shared the stage with a larger number of male presenters, as we mentioned, who are doing those kinds of things... do you feel that has ever had any kind of impact on the audience's perception of your programs, your content, your production, or anything like that in any other kind of way?

Irene Diamond:

Do you mean because it was possibly compared to what the male counterparts were offering?

Whitney Lowe:

Yes. Yeah.

Irene Diamond:

I never really thought about it. I think what's most important in the massage industry is, there are more female practitioners than males. What I hear a lot is, women come up to me and they're appreciative. They thank me for sort of being this role model. I actually just had a gal yesterday tell me, as a business owner in a therapy clinic, she said, "You're where I want to be. You have kids, you have a family, and you're able to be successful." So I don't know if they compare it and think, "Is it as good or..." But they see themselves, and I think they really appreciate that because obviously I have a different perspective than a male does being not only a business owner, but a clinician as well in practice.

Whitney Lowe:

Yeah.

Whitney Lowe:

So, as I mentioned earlier, you've done some wonderful things throughout your career here with publishing, teaching, getting a lot of these kinds of things out here. Do you feel like there's any... What have been the key things that have really been the driver behind your success in doing the things that you've accomplished? Is there anything in particular that you feel like is really either a unique skill set or unique factor that you've brought to your work to help make you so successful doing what you're doing?

Irene Diamond:

I have to thank my parents. They were the type of parents that said "No matter what you want to do, put your mind to it, make it happen. And if you fail, whatever, you just keep moving on." And they were never judgemental. I always knew I had that support. And so it allowed me the freedom to be able to just go for it and not be nervous if it didn't work. And I am very straightforward, I'm pretty to the point. I suppose, if you were looking at gender differences... And it's kind of funny, because my dad is one of the world's experts on gender identification. I don't know if you know that. But-

Whitney Lowe:

I did not know that, so you're going to have to tell me a little bit about that.

Irene Diamond:

So, if you look at my characteristics, aside from the bobbles and stuff, I tend to be very masculine in my energy. I've been told that a lot. And so, in business situations, I tend to be more straightforward. I ask for what I want. I go after what I want. I don't tend to sit back and be passive. And that has allowed me to keep moving forward. I'm okay hearing no. I just go a different direction, or I go around it, or I go under it. I don't let it devastate me, like I think happens in a lot of situations. So, I've had a lot of personal physical challenges over my years and it's made me stronger. I think the ability to choose a course, go after it, and if it doesn't work out, keep going is what serves me and will serve anybody. Because again, we just have to keep going. Keep getting up and moving forward.

Whitney Lowe:

Yeah. And I think those qualities that you mentioned, that sort of dedicated perseverance about moving forward really is just critical for anybody doing these kinds of things. But it also sounds like you've really had a unique blend of backgrounds, and experiences, and influences early on that helped mold those qualities in you, that really helped you get to where you are.

Irene Diamond:

Yeah. Bottom line, don't take it personally, whether it's a no from a client, or a no from a book publisher, or a no from a conference director gathering speakers. Okay, next...

Whitney Lowe:

Yeah, right. Yeah. Good.

Whitney Lowe:

You mentioned some of the... You said someone was talking to you yesterday about appreciating what you've done and how you've been a role model. Do you have any advice for other women interested in pursuing this as maybe teachers, or CE educators, or getting into some other kinds of leadership positions? Do you have any particular advice or suggestions for them about how to make that happen for them?

Irene Diamond:

I think it goes along the same line as what makes a business successful? So an educator, a presenter, an author, just like in anything, has to stand out from the crowd. What defines your uniqueness? And unless they've identified what that is, what makes their approach, their insight, their perspectives unique, it's going to be a whole lot harder because then they're just competing with the masses. And so to really identify what is it that they bring that's unique to the marketplace? What insight, what advice, what strategy? In my case, again, I flip everything on its head. So even in how I run our clinic, it's the opposite. For example, the concept of open to the public, which is how I started my practice, it's how most people start their practice, taking anybody and everybody and being as booked solid as possible. Well, that's the advice I got when I first started in business. That's what I followed.

Irene Diamond:

Well, now over the years, what I teach, what I present on is the complete opposite. You don't want to be booked solid. You want to only have a few appointments with your dream clients. You're not open to the public practice. You're, what I coined the term, a precise private practice. So these are things that I adopted over the years, just based on my life experiences, but now I teach that and that's what I bring out. And that's what people come to me and say, "Hey, would you teach a course on this or write an article on it", because of my unique perspective. So the answer to your question, Whitney, is what is it that you're going to bring that's different from everybody else?

Whitney Lowe:

So that is essentially, what I'm hearing is, talking a lot more about that idea of niching, you're niching... Niching, however you want to say it in our country... your practice. Finding that ideal small scale niche that's ideal for what you want to be doing. Is that what I'm hearing that, that you feel like is a really-

Irene Diamond:

It has to be there as a teacher, as an author, as a presenter, as a CE provider because, again, there's a zillion people teaching basic stuff. So if you want to compete with a zillion people, great. Keep going. But if you want to have an easier time, find out what your niche is. And even within the massage industry, that's still very broad. For example, when I teach continuing education, from a clinical standpoint, I focus on pain relief and injury rehabilitation, and improved function and performance. That's my niche. My niche is not relaxation, or de-stressing, or lymphatic. Those clinical goals can be taught by somebody else. That's not my thing. It's not what I know. It's not what I prefer to teach on. And we could even take that and go more, and more, and more narrow.

Whitney Lowe:

So it seems like a lot of people... And this I think cuts across the board with both women and men may feel like they need to emulate or mimic what other people have done that has been successful and feel like, "Well, I got to be like so and so who's doing this kind of particular type of work." And I think what I hear you saying is, it's far more important to find out who you are and what your unique gifts are in order to make those things successful for you.

Irene Diamond:

Absolutely. From the content that you're teaching to the way you present it. I mean, just a simple thing, I was thinking, "Okay, I'm going to be on this Zoom interview. What am I going to wear?" Well, even what I wear is different than 99.9% of the people who present in the therapy industry. They're wearing either casual, clothes or scrubs, or workout stuff. And it's like, well, it's not my brand, if you will.

Whitney Lowe:

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Whitney Lowe:

Do you feel like you have had to maybe work harder in something like that about imaging, or something like that, than other people might have, for example... And again, we're talking about male and female issues here. But do you feel like you have possibly had to do things that men wouldn't have to because they would be more easily accepted in casual attire, for example?

Irene Diamond:

Yeah. I do think women are judged more on their appearance, for sure. There's no question about it.

Whitney Lowe:

Yeah. So I'm curious to know also, since we've been talking a lot about some of these differences amongst CE educators at some of the major events, conferences, and things like that, do you have any things that you would say to those of us who are male participants at those events, that would be ways that we could help shift or change some of the perceptions that are out there to... I would love to see a greater representation of women at a lot of these events and things where there's a lot of discussion of who's the popular teachers kind of thing, whether that's who appears on the magazine covers, or who is appearing at the conferences, or those kinds of things. Do you know any sort of suggestions that would be beneficial for us, the other male practitioners doing these things to maybe help out to make that happen?

Irene Diamond:

I think the biggest thing is to support the women who deserve to be supported. Each of you, as male experts, that the community goes to, your voice is loud. So, introducing a female provider who may not be as well known to the magazine publishers or the conference directors, that kind of thing I think will go a heck of a long way.

Whitney Lowe:

Yeah. And I've tried to, over the years, call attention to some of those great practitioners. I've had some women that were assisting me teaching in the classroom who were doing absolutely outstanding jobs and really tried to make a point of calling attention to that so that they can help move forward in some of their careers. Because I do think that there's oftentimes bigger hurdles and challenges in making some of those kinds of things happen, but so important I think to help encourage those things in any ways we can. So I appreciate your input on any of those kinds of things as well.

Whitney Lowe:

Well, I want to applaud the wonderful ways in which you've taken those lessons throughout your life and done some wonderful things with the accomplishments that you've made throughout your career. And I think there's probably a whole lot more to come from you, so that's good as well. I will hope. And I really appreciate having the opportunity to discuss some of these things with you today. Any last thoughts or things that you'd like to share with our listeners on this topic?

Irene Diamond:

Bottom line, if you as a listener believe that you can contribute, go for it.

Whitney Lowe:

Yeah. I think that's a great lesson for anyone there about that.

Whitney Lowe:

All right. Well, wonderful. Thank you again so much for your time. And we will continue to look into some of these issues and, I hope, shine some light on these things to help bring some greater equality and greater visibility for the wonderful group of talented practitioners in our field. So, thanks again so much.

Irene Diamond:

Well, thank you both.

Whitney Lowe:

Yeah, great talking with you about that.

Irene Diamond:

Take care. Thank you.

Whitney Lowe:

The Thinking Practitioner podcast is supported by ABMP, the Associated Bodywork and Massage Professionals. ABMP membership gives professional practitioners, like you, a package, including individual liability insurance, free continuing education and quick reference apps, legislative advocacy, and much more. ABMP CE courses, podcast, and Massage & Bodywork magazine always feature expert voices and new perspectives in the profession, including ones from both Til and me.

Whitney Lowe:

Thinking Practitioner listeners can save on joining the ABMP at abmp.com/thinking. We would like to say a thank you to all of our sponsors and listeners, thanks for hanging out with us here today. Hope we gave you some things to think about. You can stop by our sites for show notes, transcripts, and extras. You can find that over on my site at academyofclinicalmassage.com and also over on Til's at advanced-trainings.com.

Whitney Lowe:

Please do also send us any questions or things you'd like to hear us talk about. Email us at info@thinkingpractitioner.com, or look for us on social media under our names. You can rate us on Apple Podcasts as it helps other people find the show. And you can hear us on Spotify, Stitch, or Google Podcast, or wherever else you happen to listen. And please do share the word and tell a friend. And thanks so much again for listening.