The Thinking Practitioner Podcast:
Episode 75: Secret Shopper CE Review (bonus episode, with Hands at the Table podcast)

Whitney Lowe:

Welcome to The Thinking Practitioner podcast.

Til Luchau:

A podcast where we dig into the fascinating issues, conditions, and quandaries in the massage and manual therapy world today.

Whitney Lowe:

I'm Whitney Lowe.

Til Luchau:

And I'm Til Luchau. Welcome to The Thinking Practitioner.

Whitney Lowe:

Welcome to The Thinking Practitioner.

Til Luchau:

Hi, this is Til Luchau and I had an interesting thing happen to me recently. I was on a road trip and I wanted to listen to one of our old episodes, listen to one of Whitney's. And as I searched for it, I turned up a podcast that had reviewed one of my classes. I didn't even realize that it happened. And it had been published. They did a pretty thorough review, and they did it on the air.

Til Luchau:

So I was on the edge of my seat waiting to see what they thought of it, if they thought it was okay. That kind of thing. They do give it a numerical rating, late in the review, so listen to that. We're going to share that here, just so that you can decide for yourself. And then also at the end, I'll mention a couple of minor clarifications. They did a really good job of getting it right, but it just a minor clarification on my background, about our certification program.

Til Luchau:

So anyway, Jeff Bramhall and Bori Suranyi did a great job of analyzing what we're up to here. And also they tell some client stories and give some cases that'll give you ideas about how to use what you're learning either in in-person trainings or online trainings or what you already know.

Til Luchau:

And this is all on the occasion of our next Principles class, which is coming up. Next live online principles class, which is coming up with a free intro on September 26th, right away. The first lecture is October 5th. If you're listening to this down the line, some later year, all these are available by recording and then we also have an ongoing schedule of live online and in-person offerings at advancedtrainings.com.

Til Luchau:

So without further ado, here is their review.

Jeff Bramhall:

Welcome to Hands at the Table. I'm your co-host, Jeff Bramhall alongside fellow massage therapist, Bori Suranyi, this podcast shows massage therapists how powerful our profession can be.

Jeff Bramhall:

We believe that as a craft and as a profession, massage therapy is only limited by a therapist's imagination and willingness to put in the work. By sharing what we're learning, what we're working on, and what's captured our interest, we hope to broaden your perspective, inspire you to set your standard high and invest in your craft.

Jeff Bramhall:

Thank you for joining us.

Bori Suranyi:

Hello, all. Welcome back to Hands at the Table, again. And guess what? We're finally together with Jeff again. Look at us. It's awesome. It's been a long while since we had an episode together. So finally our good conversations and our brainstorming and rabbit holes slides are back into the picture. So I'm really excited about that. And we had a little time to catch up with each other, so that's very good. And just even connecting through the zoom, it's also already energizing. So it's going to be a fun one.

Bori Suranyi:

So the first one that we're going to do today, and actually the next one is going to be next week, but it's this first one for us when we record two in a row, is going to be about Jeff is doing a class with Til Luchau. If you guys ever heard about him, he has a podcast with Whitney Lowe and he's very much into the orthopedic and advanced manual therapy and massage therapy world.

Bori Suranyi:

So Jeff chose one of his classes to do this time, and I have a bunch of questions on why and how is the class and all that. So we're going to jump into that and then we're going to follow up with what type of techniques he learned, what type of results that he's been getting with it. And overall, how has that class ranks up with all the other studies that we have been doing and how would we rate that. Maybe next time we come up with a rating system or something.

Bori Suranyi:

Well, I guess that's in the future, but now... So let's start with that. Why this class and how did you find it and how did you pick this one?

Jeff Bramhall:

Awesome. Yeah. So I have been... So the class that I'm taking is one of the CAMT, that's the advanced trainings certification. If you do their whole thing, you get the certification of CAMT, Certified Advanced Technical, advanced training... It's certified something manual therapist. I don't know, I'm not there. I'm in the first course. And I'm only taking the first course at this point.

Jeff Bramhall:

But I was exposed to Til through his podcast, The Thinking Practitioner, the one he does with Whitney Lowe. Really, on one hand was drawn in and on the other hand, felt a little bit indifferent towards him. I just kind of thought that it was... I thought that he was thinking differently than I was interested in learning from where it was very much, a lot of this was about the techniques and about what's been backed by studies and it was very nerdy in a way that I'm either all the way in or all the way out of, if that makes sense. Where if I'm in the right mood, I am, I will, I'll just devour it, plus I'll devour the citations. And if I'm not in the right mood, I'll just be like, "I don't want to hear this at all."

Jeff Bramhall:

So that was how I was... That's how Til came onto my radar. And another local massage therapist, guy by the name of Derek Campbell who runs Bodies and Muscular Therapy, he was one of my classmates in massage school. Really great guy, really good massage therapist who had a pretty bad injury, maybe three years ago, broke his wrist and was completely taken out of doing the work that he cared about so much for, I want to say he was out for six or eight months, a pretty significant time away from the practice. And one of the things that he did in that time that he was coming back was like, "Well, how do I do this? And how do I come back to massage therapy in a way that is going to conserve my own energy and also put me in a position where I can really continue, where I can make a living that's going to endure."

Jeff Bramhall:

And he had discovered Til's classes had taken a couple of them and we were talking, I think this is about a year ago now, just after he opened his new practice last August. He and I opened practices around the same time. And I had gone in and he was like, "Oh, I got to show you some of this cool new stuff I learned." And he was doing some... He was practicing some neck stuff and some shoulder stuff on me that felt wonderful. And it was very easy work. I could tell that he wasn't putting a lot of effort into it, or he was putting a lot of effort, but he wasn't putting a lot of muscle into it, but I was feeling really good about it.

Jeff Bramhall:

So he was telling me, like, "Yeah, I learned this stuff from Til", and he showed me a couple of things. I borrowed those, started using those a little bit and was like, "Hmm, this is kind of neat. These work pretty well. These are good back pocket kind of things for me when I need to... When I'm running into something I can't figure out with my own lens."

Jeff Bramhall:

And maybe two months ago, there was an episode of The Thinking Practitioner where they were talking about feet, I think. Probably talking about feet. Well, I'll listen to anything that they're doing that's about feet. And there was just something about the way that Til was talking about the feet that I just latched onto. And just the way that he talked about it as... Talked about the foot as proprioceptive tool, or he was talking about proprioception and interoception and exteroception. And I think he was talking about the foot specifically as it determines where it acts on the world and it gives a ton of feedback from the world. It's how important it is there.

Jeff Bramhall:

When I did a solo episode a few weeks ago, it was pretty much about that. And I heard that and was like, "Man, I got to dig in." And he was starting up one of his live online courses, the principal leg course, the following week. And I texted Derek, said I was thinking about signing up. And he called me immediately after I sent that text and said, "Look, if you do this, we can practice on each other. This would be awesome. I think you'll love his stuff. You'll love how he is teaching. And no one around here does any... Right now, I'm the only person in this part of the state that's taken any of his courses." And I was like, "Well, that's cool." And Derek has found... And so that cinched it for me.

Jeff Bramhall:

And so that's how I found out about it and how I ended up with it. And actually, I'm going to share one of Derek's things. And I'm going to... Since he started working with doing advanced training stuff, since he's been doing a lot of his work based on Til's work, and this is one of the things that I really found incredibly resonant when I listen to Til talk about what his objectives are, what the treatment goals are, is that they're not about affecting change. They're not about changing somebody. They're about affecting someone's nervous system and encouraging their nervous system to change through their own movement and their own voluntary actions, which I thought was really, as a principle, is... That's the same principles that you and I have talked about since day one on this.

Jeff Bramhall:

But then I was talking to Derek about this and he was saying that he was getting a lot... He's pretty much filled his books working with people who have Ehlers-Danlos syndrome.

Bori Suranyi:

Oh, wow.

Jeff Bramhall:

The hyper... Which characterized, hyper...

Bori Suranyi:

Hyper mobility.

Jeff Bramhall:

Hyper mobile joints. A lot of dancers, a lot of gymnasts have that. And they end up with pretty catastrophic injuries. But one of the problems that people end up having is that their joints are so lax that traditional massage therapy work, which is kind of pushing on a muscle until it gives up, end up with them feeling good immediately once they get off the table and then feeling horrible afterwards because their muscles are essentially holding their body in place in space. And so they lose their stability by losing this muscle tone. And the way that Til's work as applied by Derek, who's just got a really wonderful energy about him anyway, people are coming away from it, people are coming out of his sessions with him and they're like... There are people who've never felt good coming out of a massage, but have always gotten massage because they were athletes at some level, primarily as dancers, they're coming out of sessions with Derek feeling amazing and not getting hurt.

Jeff Bramhall:

So when Derek told me the story about that, I'm like, "Oh my God, this is really, it's really cool." Because it is genuinely encouraging somebody's body to take care of itself. This is such a cool story, the way that he explained it and everything. It was just really, really amazing.

Bori Suranyi:

That's awesome. And that's a very surprising result, also. So that's really cool. Yeah.

Jeff Bramhall:

And I think it's because if we have the, I'd say, almost, a straight ahead view of massage therapy where we are trying to calm someone's nervous system down and that means relieving muscle tone. We're calming a nervous system down and that is specifically reducing muscle tone. And the more muscle tone that's reduced, that is our indicator. That's our mental indicator of how down regulated the nervous system is and thus how successful we are as a massage therapist.

Jeff Bramhall:

And what I've seen in Til's class, what I've heard in Derek's story is what I've seen in my own practice using some of these techniques is that, holy crap, the answer isn't how soft does this get. It actually doesn't need to be... It can not be soft and get a huge result. That thing is really, really cool. And ultimately the work ends up being a lot easier on the practitioner, which is pretty cool.

Bori Suranyi:

Yeah. That's pretty good. For longevity of your career, yeah. That's very good and very useful. Yeah.

Jeff Bramhall:

I think Til's been doing this stuff for 40 years. It's been around him. He's been around a minute and he's...

Bori Suranyi:

Yeah.

Jeff Bramhall:

It's pretty cool.

Bori Suranyi:

Yeah. So you mentioned it's an online live seminar, so it's live classes, streamed? Or how is the class built up itself?

Jeff Bramhall:

Yeah. This is one of the places where I found... I think that they designed an online course really and truly around a manual therapist coming out, feeling confident in what they're... And actually using the techniques. Which I think is noteworthy.

Jeff Bramhall:

So the structure of the course is first, the keystones are, there's four presentations live online, plus recordings. One every other week. So over the course, there's one on weeks, 1, 3, 5, and 7 of the class. And those are... One thing he does that's pretty cool because he serves people globally is that he does two of those each day. So he does one at two o'clock Eastern and then one at seven o'clock Eastern. So you can get people... That way you can actually, if you're in Europe, there's a convenient time. But also if you're in Tokyo, there's a convenient time because I've been on calls with people in Europe and in Tokyo, which is pretty cool.

Jeff Bramhall:

So there's that lot. And then obviously recordings are available. So part number one is that. That's kind of the cornerstone. If you do nothing else, this is the thing that you probably are doing. It is accompanied by his advanced trainings manual, volume one of his book. So there's a book with background reading to do. Each wee, there's also a techniques video, and the techniques are all built around one specific outcome. So there's the ACE, there's four sequences. Well, I think there's probably going to end up being five sequences. But there's the A sequence which is the... Sequence A is foot and lower leg. Sequence B is the knee. Sequence C is around the hips. Then there's a Z sequence that's all based on a squat test.

Jeff Bramhall:

So there are technique videos. There's a technique video that's just a recording from a live seminar that he did, which are really well produced and they're great to learn from. So that's part three.

Jeff Bramhall:

Part four is small group discussions, which advanced training, you sign up for. It's not... There's also discussion groups as well. But there's, in the week after the presentation, you sign up for a small group. So I think those have been about not more than... I haven't been in a group of more than 12 people. Bunch of different members of the advanced training faculty are actually running those groups. And they are... It's like a 75 minute walkthrough of the techniques, which are all based around Q and A and then visuals.

Jeff Bramhall:

So the instructor will have... The one that I went, the Larry [inaudible 00:17:57], I think his name is. But I went to one last week and Larry had the regular front facing camera and then he had a camera trained on his demo table. And he had two skeletal models on his demo table where he would actually show the way that the technique would work and how we would... And one of the things that they did that I appreciate a lot is he would say, "We've got 75 minutes and we've got 10 techniques to go through. So got about 7 minutes, about 5, 6, 7 minutes that we can spend on each technique in order for us to get through it."

Jeff Bramhall:

And so they're able to really make sure that we get through the information without getting bogged down. And I appreciate that a lot. And they've actually done it really well, which is, they've not only said they're going to do it, but actually followed through. So that's been really impressive.

Jeff Bramhall:

And then the last component is small... Nope, not the last. There's two more components of the course. One is the discussion groups which are very small groups that are self-organized, which is similar to what the small groups that we were in in the encounters, pinnacle performance class and they meet about as frequently. I haven't actually met with... My small group has not actually met, which is not great, but not the worst.

Jeff Bramhall:

And then the last thing is they have practice periods, which there's a little bit of an extra charge for them, like, 12 bucks or something like that. If you want to use the class towards the CAMT certification, then you need to sign up for these. But these are cool because it's again, small group, I think it's not more than eight people and an instructor. And you show up and you bring a person and you put your camera facing you working on the person, and the instructor will watch you go through each technique and give you positioning feedback and all those things that you get in a classroom setting, but they... I genuinely think they said, "Hey, we have a very high standard for what we create. How do we maintain that standard in a new environment?"

Bori Suranyi:

And make sure that people who come out of that class have that standard. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Wow.

Jeff Bramhall:

Yeah, there's a lot to it, but it's really, really cool. I just have been really impressed, as somebody who's made online courses and made live courses for a living in the past, seeing it done well is really, really cool and I appreciate it a lot.

Bori Suranyi:

Yeah, yeah. I bet. Yeah. And so these, the groups, is it on Zoom or do you guys have a good chat going on or what's the platform generally?

Jeff Bramhall:

It's on Zoom.

Bori Suranyi:

Or do they use all kinds? Okay.

Jeff Bramhall:

Zoom is the place that... All of the meetings take place on Zoom and there's a Facebook group, which it's a Facebook group, so I'm not spending any time in it.

Bori Suranyi:

Yeah.

Jeff Bramhall:

So if there is one place that I feel like that I think could be better, I think I enjoyed having that Slack group in Connor's thing. I thought that was really helpful.

Jeff Bramhall:

But they also have a learning management software on the advanced trainings website that's very, very well built out. Even if you sign up for one of their free webinars, you can see their whole course offering. And then you dive in... Anything that you've ever done with advanced trainings is all in the same place, which I think is a huge benefit.

Jeff Bramhall:

And the other thing they do is with each section, they have a handout and their handouts are very, very well done. One of the things that I really enjoy is for every technique, they have three... Each technique has one of three objectives. They're either going to be a palpation... It's about palpation, it's about differentiation, or it's about integration. And each one says... There's one, the first technique on the first lecture is called a rolling pin technique, which is just a medial and lateral rolling of the foot, having somebody supine and rolling their foot and rolling the medial and lateral arches over one another. Pronation supination of the foot. And that is a palpation tool. It's like, you're feeling for differentiation, you're feeling for space. And I find that that's really helpful. That's actually been really helpful for me in not using the whole technique set, but being like, "Oh, where is there a deficit? What does this person not have? Do they not have differentiation between their... Do they not have a functional sense of differentiation between their adductor and their hamstring?" And if we can facilitate that, what changes?

Jeff Bramhall:

And that's the process of inquiry. That's the thing that I just latch. Whenever I hear someone doing that, I just latch on. I'm like, "All right, cool. We're going." This is where even if your techniques are garbage, it doesn't matter because your approach will actually cover for garbage technique because you're actually giving somebody the right thing. And it turns out everything kind of works.

Bori Suranyi:

Yeah, exactly. It's like, "Mmm. Yeah." It is a concept and a approach for sure. Yeah. That's awesome.

Bori Suranyi:

So you're taking, you said it's a lower limb.

Jeff Bramhall:

Yeah.

Bori Suranyi:

So it's leg, knees, foot?

Jeff Bramhall:

Leg, knee, foot is how they describe it.

Bori Suranyi:

Yeah. And then how about the techniques? So as you mentioned now, the palpation, differentiation, and integration. What are the techniques? Is it orthopedic more? Or is it mobilizations? Or is it active, passive techniques? What's... Because it's still a massage. Is he coming from the massage therapy world or is he a physical therapist or...

Jeff Bramhall:

He's coming from the massage therapy world.

Bori Suranyi:

Or all of the above.

Jeff Bramhall:

He's coming from the massage therapy world, but he's also very broadly informed. So some of it is mobilization. Some of it's mobilization, some of it is active differentiation work, some of it is passive work. A lot of the techniques will involve, you know you can do it, you can just do this or you can have somebody flex and extend their ankle while you're doing this.

Jeff Bramhall:

There's a lot of feeling into places that I don't think we spend a lot of time with. One of the things I found, personally, really kind of revelatory in the first session was, or in the second session, was feeling into the meniscus.

Bori Suranyi:

Oh, wow.

Jeff Bramhall:

So you're working on a knee, you bend the knee up and you're just using your thumbs to just feel into the space between the femur and the tibia and working your way around, and then starting to feel the glide between the tibia and the femur. And you start to actually feel that, feel the mobility in the joints. Feeling the cruciate ligaments and feeling them kind of pull as you pull, push, and twist. And with these really subtle movements and not a lot of effort. And it's just really nice. It's just... That's the thing is it just feels... I'm doing these things on myself and I'm like, "This just feels really, really nice."

Jeff Bramhall:

I think something that I have appreciated is that Til doesn't shy away from saying that something just feels good. And I think that's something I've missed with some trainings that I've done and that we've done. So we don't... It's that we're so focused on like, "Ah, this is going to get their performance so good." And Til's-

Bori Suranyi:

The evidence shows this and this and this and this is good. And-

Jeff Bramhall:

Exactly, and it's almost... And Til's approach, which just, "This just feels really nice."

Bori Suranyi:

Yep. Does still work. Again, if it's a concept, it's good, then however you get to it is perfectly fine.

Jeff Bramhall:

Yeah. One of the techniques that I was doing to myself that I've done with almost all my clients since is it's just working in the retinacula at the ankle and just push, a very gentle, pushing up around with the intent a little bit just below skin level, pushing up, pulling up. Saying, yeah, like, pushing up socks. But just a gentle mobilization of the retinacula at the ankle. That's really, really nice.

Bori Suranyi:

I would love that right now.

Jeff Bramhall:

Yeah. And people really enjoy it. And the cool thing is that I have one client, I can tell you one client story with it is she is a client of mine who's a woman I've been seeing. I've been working with her for probably about four months at this point. We made some really huge... She came in because of... She would sprint. And she plays ultimate Frisbee at a high level. So she's got to do a lot. She does a lot of sprinting. And she would sprint and if she wasn't running and they would practice on a soccer field. Soccer fields are great, because they have lines on them. If she wasn't near a line, her sprint would always arc. She would always turn to her... So she would always drift to the right.

Bori Suranyi:

Okay.

Jeff Bramhall:

So one of the things... So we did a bunch of work, got her... And actually she was running into some other problems that... This was a secondary or tertiary complaint that she had. And she's just like, "Yeah, I noticed this. It's weird." So we found that she had really limited dorsiflexion on one side and tons and tons of it on the other. So my response was, even just a few months ago was... First, it felt like there was a hard stop at one ankle. So I referred her to a chiropractor to adjust that to see if they could get movement out of her ankle, and they could and there was some good progress that got made there, but it was still limited. And we ended up... I used one of the techniques that I learned in Til's class. And her whole ankle, it was called a... It's was a tibiotalar, calcaneotalar release or calcaneotibial release.

Jeff Bramhall:

And so it's just holding on onto the calcaneus with one hand and just leaning on the bottom of the tibia at the talus and just leading, just letting the weight of my arm sit there and everything just clunked. And it was just this, after a minute and a half, it just went... There was just this little clunk that happened. And I was like, "I think that's what we were waiting for." And then she got up and both of her knees could travel way, way over her toes as opposed to where she was before, where one knee would travel super far forward and the other one would just get stuck. Knee would get to the base of the toe and just stuck. And it was like, "Okay, well..."

Bori Suranyi:

I guess that works.

Jeff Bramhall:

I guess we're onto something. And another client today who was coming in with a little bit of a hip impingement and we tested around, found a.... Tested around, we approached it methodically and using some of Til's techniques through, in this case, it was a differentiation technique which was just an active movement where I was encouraging the adductor and the hamstring to move independently of one another. And she gets up and she's like, "Well, that is the best I've ever squatted." And you're like, "All right. Cool. We're onto something."

Jeff Bramhall:

And I think there's something to how much of it is active work. I really think that once we've addressed the basic level, the reflex level of the nervous system, I think the next thing that we can do is we start to look at what is done voluntarily. And our work doesn't need to be passive. It can be active. And if we are working actively, then maybe that makes a better effect at the nervous system level. I don't know. But certainly I've been really, really pleased with what I've seen.

Jeff Bramhall:

Oh, plus I had a client who literally, he came in super frozen shoulder, constant, has had on again, off again, frozen shoulder. Basically he plays ultimate Frisbee as well. And this actually pulled some techniques out of the book. He plays ultimate. Every time he lands wrong, hits his shoulder on the ground, and he is just out of commission for a month. And we in one session had him go from 15 degrees to over 120 of shoulder abduction. Yeah, shoulder abduction. It's just right there.

Bori Suranyi:

Okay.

Jeff Bramhall:

It was so cool.

Bori Suranyi:

Nice. Oh my gosh. That's amazing. And then as you mentioned, the techniques itself are more your body weight. So it's not forceful. It's more just waiting for the body to respond. So it's very soft or easy on the therapist and I guess it's easy on the body too.

Jeff Bramhall:

It has been in my experience. I'm still... All the techniques, there are right ways to do them and wrong ways to do them. And the wrong ways to do them are the ones that are easier for me to do. And so I'm doing them the wrong way, but I'm working on learning the right ways. Like, "Okay. How do I not use my thumb for this? How do I use-"

Bori Suranyi:

Oh yeah, yeah.

Jeff Bramhall:

"How do I use my forearm for this? How do I use a soft fist for this?" So no, slowly figuring that stuff out." But I think, in general, a lot of it is weight and weight. W-E-I-G-H-T and W-A-I-T. The two work out really, really well.

Bori Suranyi:

I like that. Yeah. It's a good T-shirt sign. Okay. For massage therapists. Yes.

Bori Suranyi:

Okay. So that sounds really good in having those results and everything. Do you know how long is the whole certification? How many modules are in there? So if this is the lower limb, then maybe, probably, I would assume there's plenty of those, but...

Jeff Bramhall:

Yeah. So of the principles, there are seven principles. Arm, wrist, shoulder. Headaches, migraines. Leg, knee, and foot. Neck, jaw, and head. Oh, sorry. Six. Neck, jaw, and head. Pelvis, hip, sacrum. Spine, ribs, and low back.

Bori Suranyi:

Okay.

Jeff Bramhall:

And then you have to do the practice.

Bori Suranyi:

That's pretty good grouping.

Jeff Bramhall:

Yeah. So it ends up being 10 days of the core curriculum. Four days of... They have specialty courses and you have to take four days of those that you need to take. And then there's a handful of additional stuff. It's a pretty significant requirement. Actually, if someone's gone through the process with Til, and has CAMT, they've put in a lot of work.

Bori Suranyi:

Wow. Okay.

Jeff Bramhall:

They've earned it. They've earned it and they've invested a significant amount of time and a significant amount of money into learning this stuff.

Bori Suranyi:

Yeah.

Jeff Bramhall:

But at the same time, I want to say this course only cost me like 250 bucks or something like that. It's so freaking worth it.

Bori Suranyi:

Oh, that's not bad.

Jeff Bramhall:

Yeah. Not bad at all.

Bori Suranyi:

It's not bad at all. Yeah. Especially nowadays. Especially what you get. It sounds like you get a lot of stuff. So that's awesome. Yeah.

Jeff Bramhall:

Yeah. Really, real lot. Which is really cool.

Bori Suranyi:

Okay. So on a scale from 1 to 10, this is a scale.

Jeff Bramhall:

Oh, yeah. This is our rotten tomatoes?

Bori Suranyi:

Yes, exactly. Exactly. So how many tomatoes? So 1 is, of course, the worst class you ever took. And then 10 is the best, everything is the top, top, top. Where does this class... Everything as in subject, technique, how well it's taught, how well is it structured? What you get, the actual materials and all that stuff.

Jeff Bramhall:

So I'm excited about it. So I have to temper my excitement and see where I can go. I think from a techniques and application standpoint, it's a 10, for sure. I think this is the kind of course that I think anybody who works in our industry, who has any control over what they do in session... I don't think this stuff would be... Probably would be, but I don't think it's appropriate, necessarily, in a spa session. I think it's much more attuned to the kind of session, like, my sessions, which are all about physically integrating the work. I think it's made for the kind of work that I do.

Jeff Bramhall:

So for me, it's a 10, I think for people who have the kind of approach that I imagine, the people who would be listening to this take, I think it's a 10 for sure. I'll see... I think I'll reserve the ability to revise my score in the future, but I want to say that it is... Because what even is the comparison point for an online course?

Bori Suranyi:

I mean, usually, if it's not a 10, if I have to hesitate, I say it's at 8 or 9 because... I'm sure as we talked about Connor's course too, I'm sure there's ways to improve and there's space to grow, but if you don't see it, but it's kind of like, "Okay, this is..." You know if it's a 10, but if it's less than that, then it's an 8 or 9 because it's good or something like that. If I have major problems with the class, that's when I'm like, "Okay, this is a 4 and a 5." I'm, like...

Jeff Bramhall:

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, honestly it is a 10 right now for me. I think the only thing that I wish were a little bit different aside from it being online, I would really enjoy this course in person. I would really, really enjoy that. I just think that because there are so many different parts of it, there's the practice sessions, the small groups, the discussion groups, and the live session, and the other things, parts of the online course. That, I think, is just a little bit challenging, but it's still... I don't know how you can handle that better and...

Bori Suranyi:

Yeah.

Jeff Bramhall:

I don't know how you can handle that better while also holding the whole process up to the standard that they hold it to.

Bori Suranyi:

Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So those are always hard to do by itself anyway, so yeah. That's good. Awesome.

Bori Suranyi:

Anything else you would like to add or any details? But I guess it sounds like you definitely recommend this class for us. Yeah.

Jeff Bramhall:

Yeah. For sure. I'm looking forward to taking another one. I'm also looking forward to traveling, to take one of these in person, because it is really... It is-

Bori Suranyi:

Where is he located? Do you know?

Jeff Bramhall:

He's in Oregon, US.

Bori Suranyi:

Okay.

Jeff Bramhall:

Yeah. Or he might be in Colorado. I don't know. He's somewhere in the big, like, in-

Bori Suranyi:

They're always like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeff Bramhall:

He is west of where I am. I know that much. But I look forward to trying to take another one and I've definitely talked this one to death, but it is impressive how quickly and easily applicable it was.

Bori Suranyi:

That's awesome. Oh, yeah. I love that. Awesome. Well thank you for taking that class and telling us about it. Definitely peaked my interest. I'm going to look into that again and pick up Thinking Practitioner again. And in the show notes, we're going to write in probably the link to his website. And if you guys have any questions or any other experience about him or his classes or any kind of class, technically, let us know and then we'll be back next week with some other topics.

Bori Suranyi:

And thank you, Jeff, for telling us all about it. Now we know.

Jeff Bramhall:

Yeah. Thanks for asking about it. It's exciting to just share what's working.

Bori Suranyi:

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you all for listening and talk to you guys next week. Bye.

Jeff Bramhall:

We'll see you next week. Bye.

Jeff Bramhall:

Thanks for taking the time to listen to this episode of Hands at the Table. If you got something out of this episode, have comments or topics you'd like us to cover, please let us know by tagging us on Instagram. Bori is @restore_revive_therapy and Jeff is @justbreathemanualtherapy.

Jeff Bramhall:

We would also appreciate if you can take a minute to leave us a rating, like, or review wherever you listen. It'll help other people find us. We'll see you next week.

Til Luchau:

Okay. Thanks again to Jeff and to Bori for letting us rebroadcast their secret shopper review. They did a great job, like I said, of getting both the structure and the purpose for the training and then some nice stories too, they wove in there. Minor clarifications I mentioned. I live in Colorado, not Oregon. I'm not a massage therapist. My background is in structional integration, mostly, and other several other manual therapy disciplines. Although I did have 125 hour massage training back when that's all that was required in California in the early 80s. And we have a good number of massage therapists in our trainings, which are sponsored by massage schools amongst other venues.

Til Luchau:

Our CAMT Certifications programs, five courses are, minor correction; Neck, head, and jaw. Spine, ribs, and low back. Arm, wrist, and shoulder. Legs, knees, and feet.

Til Luchau:

And it's available both in person live online and by recording.

Til Luchau:

So please do go check out Jeff and Bori's Hands at the Table podcast. I'll put the link in the show notes. Thanks to all of our sponsors. They'll be back next episode. Go check out Whitney's site, academyofclinicalmassage.com. He'll be back next time. My site, advanced-trainings.com where you can get information about this upcoming training, again. The next live one here is September 26th, the free intro. And then the lectures start October 5th. Or advancedtrainings.com will give you the current schedule and all the recordings.

Til Luchau:

If there are questions or things you want to hear us talk about, email us at info@thethinkingpractitioner.com, or look for us on social media, just under our names. Rate us on Apple Podcasts as it really does help other people find the show. That helps the algorithm so that more people know about the show. And just special thanks to the people that have taken time to write these great reviews like the one we listened to today, but then also on Apple Podcasts, I want to thank VDI, Amy, DCP1002, a lot of other users, over a hundred other users have taken time to review our podcast here. So please, when you get a minute, do that. That would be very helpful.

Til Luchau:

You can hear us on Spotify, Stitcher, Google podcasts, wherever else you listen. And please do share the word and tell a friend.